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Subject Topic: Coping with the wind
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Message posted by Whimp on 09/8/2017 at 10:53pm
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Just a question about poles and ground pegs.
Which poles do you think are best ? Aluminium or fibre. I only ask because they both have different properties. I have aluminium on the mountain tent and fibre poles on the larger tent.
My second question is about pegs, I use the delta ground pegs, which are brilliant for the tent, but I was wondering if anyone had used the corkscrew type for the tent as well.
My thought is that as the weight shifts on the guy lines the delta pegs are great, but as the tent base is held down by normal straight pegs, then any buffeting could remove these, (experience of such) and a number of strategically placed screw type may help in securing the tent itself.

Message posted by ultraquasar on 10/8/2017 at 4:39am
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On the poles it really depends on the tensile strength of the materials used and construction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

Some materials are really brittle ie they can snap easily, steel is more brittle than aluminum and as you see with plastics, the clear hard plastic of a biro pen case is more brittle than say a soft plastic used to make a flexible toothbrush.

Many layers are better than a single solid core for flexibility and it is a case of you get what you pay for.

Re the pegs, if they are the same size, which would you use to pull out a bottle cork?

The corkscrew type would be able to pull out the cork, the delta would not be able to pull out the cork so in theory the corkscrew would be better as it would probably make a decent size hole in the ground if it did get pulled out of the ground, but you'd probably have a harder time screwing it into the ground.

What makes the delta's interesting is they are relying a bit on leverage in that they are in some ways not unlike a right angle shelf bracket used to support planks of wood to make some shelves in a house. So provided they cant swivel in a circle they should be better than a normal metal peg if both are the same size and put in at the same angle ie straight down, but if they can be made to swivel 180 degrees it might be easier to pull out when the wind is up.

As the need to go straight down into the ground though, if the soil is rocky or riddle with stones you lose the flexibility of putting the peg in at a different angle.

For maximum flexibility with different types of soil, I dont think you can beat the humble metal peg which is shaped like an upside down U or V at the top of it.

Post last edited on 10/08/2017 04:50:02

Message posted by alahol2 on 10/8/2017 at 10:58am
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Metal poles (steel/aluminium), I think, are generally held to be stronger and more stable than GRP. 'Top end' tents tend to have metal poles.
One advantage of metal is that the poles are often preformed into the finished shape meaning they are not stressed just by the act of erecting the tent.
As tents get bigger, the poles necessarily get thicker and heavier. By the time you get to a mid-sized family tent a steel (tubular) pole is likely to be lighter than the (solid) GRP equivalent.
As for pegs we use standard V-shaped steel pegs for the main guys. If the ground gets very wet then we may well double peg strategic guys.
We always place the steel pins at an angle rather than vertically. If it's particularly rocky/stoney we use rock pegs. It may take a couple of tries but I've never been defeated in getting a rock peg properly buried.
I imagine the screw pegs could be a useful addition to the armament but, for me, carrying a drill/charger/driver seems too much hassle to fix a non-existent problem.

Message posted by ultraquasar on 10/8/2017 at 6:05pm
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I tend to agree, the process of making or drawing a tube hardens its and when dimensions are the same, steel is always stronger than ally which is why (mild) steel is used for scaffold poles and not stainless steel (way more expensive) or ally (a little more expensive than stainless but softer), thats not to say you cant get tubes in the dimensions which are standard for scaffolding when other reasons demand it. I remember once a tent marque company needed a particular size ally tube for the custom built marques they made for corporate events with corporate sponsorship all over the fabric in the 90's and they insisted on having the ally even though the mild steel would have been stronger and cheaper, but the customer had other reasons for wanting the ally so we didnt complain as we didnt sell mild steel tubes only stainless and ally.

The fibre I think is better suited for lightweight requirements if you dont mind the poles flexing in the wind.

I think some after market products like different pegs exist because they are made easily and have more widespread use as nearly all use a rope of sorts for the guylines, where as the virtually non existent after market tent poles where you have so many different dimensions to cater for, its a non starter in business terms except perhaps in the most popular of tent dimensions.

I've only every used whats been supplied with my tents and I only use my hands or a boot to push the pegs in at whatever angle is needed sometimes dictated by the type of soil because you have to draw a line over what extra's are worth getting and whats not. However as I've stayed in an old army bell tent where the supplied wooden pegs were not suitable for the gravel/mud car park it was erected on, in circumstances like that I would definitely get some better pegs. Either way, it put a smile on my face when it fell down during the night and the leaders had to hastily get it back up because of the pouring rain.

Message posted by Whimp on 11/8/2017 at 2:44pm
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Re:corkscrew type pegs. They sell longer and bigger ones for holding your dog in place. I presume that they can pull harder than the wind, depending on dog size. Inverted U/V pegs sometimes tend to pull out when the ground is soft, as in rain and wind conditions, no matter what angle you put them in. This is why I bought the Delta pegs, they just get pulled harder into the ground due to the roughly 70 degree angle between upper and lower parts of the peg. The peg is also wide like a T section if you were to look from the end, which means it resists cutting into the soil.
As far as poles are concerned, carbon fibre is light and as strong as steel on paper, but with the flexing due to the wind, people have seen these splinter and break. Otherwise why sell spares ?Aluminium is used in my mountain tent which is small and light and has stood up to gale force winds. However this does not mean size for size they would be ok on a larger tent.
Tensile strength is not really any measure I would care to use, given that poles are subject to shear stress more than tensile stress. I would imagine a tensometer test of the 2 materials would show aluminium as having the greatest elastic range, which would in itself indicate that they could bend further than carbon fibre.
I just wondered what experience my fellow campers have had with the different types ?

Message posted by phathamster on 11/8/2017 at 3:58pm
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its all about angles with pegs though, if they are used with a guy rope you can get a them to go in at a fair old angle, if this angle is back towards the tent, and the guy is away even the strongest of wind will make very little difference, i just use standard plastic pegs mostly, i find they 'grip' the ground quite well, if the ground is firmer i have some chunky traditional pegs, as well as the rock type. im not convinced that fancy pegs make that much difference, expecially on a well pitched tent.

never had an issue in many a strong wind, providing guys are nice and taut at the correct angle.


Im also glad im not the only guy rope fiddler out there, i often take a wonder around to check and tighten where necessary, although i am guilty of not using all the guys if i am staying somewhere with more acceptable weather.

Post last edited on 11/08/2017 16:21:11

Message posted by ultraquasar on 16/8/2017 at 6:52pm
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Quote:
Im also glad im not the only guy rope fiddler out there, i often take a wonder around to check and tighten where necessary, although i am guilty of not using all the guys if i am staying somewhere with more acceptable weather.

Post last edited on 11/08/2017 16:21:11


When camping I check them first thing in the morning and last thing at night, its like a little ritual getting the twang just right.


Message posted by ultraquasar on 16/8/2017 at 6:54pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Whimp on 11/8/2017
Re:corkscrew type pegs. They sell longer and bigger ones for holding your dog in place.



They work well for mine.

Quote: Tensile strength is not really any measure I would care to use, given that poles are subject to shear stress more than tensile stress. I would imagine a tensometer test of the 2 materials would show aluminium as having the greatest elastic range, which would in itself indicate that they could bend further than carbon fibre.
I just wondered what experience my fellow campers have had with the different types ?



For the metal one's its important, but the fibreglass type's I've had a few of them shear or snap, the metal tubes just bend and crease.


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