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Message posted by Colin21 on 30/9/2018 at 8:25pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Francais on 30/9/2018
What's the problem Colin, Tesla produced there first BEV over 10 years ago, as did Nissan.



As I said, "mass-market for at least 10 years". Are those vehicles still in regular use if they ever were? I prefer to let others be the guinea-pigs, then I buy when the product has been tested by others and refined by the builders.

BEVs have been around for decades. Electric milk floats and bread vans were battery-powered in my childhood, but battery powered cars are nowhere near mainstream yet.

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Message posted by Francais on 30/9/2018 at 9:50pm
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Well Colin, the Renault Zoe has sold over 100,000 units so far, and Tesla will have sold well over 300,000 cars by the end of this year, the Nissan Leaf has also sold well over 300,000 units.
I know that is only a small number compared to fossil cars sold, but you have to admit, it's not to shabby of a result, and we are only just at the beginning of the transition from fossil cars to mass ownership of BEV's.
Watch this space!.

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Message posted by saxo1 on 30/9/2018 at 9:59pm
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With the Nissan Leaf there are far fewer moving parts to go wrong and the batteries have proven to be reliable.
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Message posted by Francais on 30/9/2018 at 10:49pm
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Yep saxo, and that is one of the reasons why I am so interested in BEV's, just about the only maintenance is keeping the windscreen washer tank topped up.
One Tesla owner reported only needing to change brake pads at 250,000 miles!, that's regenerative braking for you.

But I do find it odd that most BEV's have a regular 12v Lead Acid battery to keep all the dials going etc, firstly why is the 12v battery not lithium ion, and secondly, why are they not simply tapping 12v of the main battery pack.

It's a small niggle, I guess they use a 12v Lead Acid battery as they are cheap, maybe 10 a pop at cost, also I guess they need a separate 12v battery, in case the main battery pack goes flat, so that instruments and controls can remain active.

Message posted by Colin21 on 30/9/2018 at 11:31pm
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Whatever the figures BEVs are still a very long way from even becoming mass-market. I said "mass-market for at least 10 years" which would quite possibly not fall within my lifetime, or at least not within my driving lifetime. Not that I could ever afford one anyway.

One question I would also ask is how can the Lithium Ion batteries in cars be so different to the Lithium Ion batteries in power tools? It's a genuine question because there is possibly something I don't know about car L.I. batteries. What I do know however is that power tool Li batteries don't last very long at all before they lose their ability to hold a charge. Probably 3 years at most with normal DIY use.

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Message posted by saxo1 on 01/10/2018 at 11:35am
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Li batteries for power tools mobile phones etc are built to less demanding parameters than those for EVs,they are built ,to a large extent,to match the life expectancy of the tool/phone.Although in practice the tool will outlast the battery it isn't in the interest of the manufacturers to sell a tool with an extended life, they are in the business of selling replacement tools, one of the reasons it is often economical to buy a replacement tool than a new battery.
The same approach doesn't work with electric vehicles,people wouldn't buy a new car after 3 years because the battery has failed.
Another factor is the rate of discharge,power tools can be discharged fully and then recharged to their maximum whereas EV batteries have buffer zones at the top and bottom ends of the capacity so that when it loses it's capacity over time it uses the buffer at the top end.
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Message posted by Francais on 01/10/2018 at 12:05pm
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Yep Colin, Tesla keep there battery Chem a very closely guarded secret, or should I say Panasonic do.

Both VAG and BMW have purchased Tesla's to tear down, and I would imagine it's the batteries that they want to have the closest look at.

Also Tesla BMS is way ahead of the pack, not all BEV's have liquid cooling/ heating of the batteries like Tesla have, but other auto makers are now installing liquid cooling/ heating to there battery packs, as it obviously extends both range and the life of the battery pack.

I think BEV's are now at a point were range is no longer an issue, and neither is the life expectancy of the battery pack.

Tesla's latest form is the 2170 cell, which gives more density and overall efficiency that the 18650 form cells, and it is the 2170 that goes into the Model 3, some 4,416 cells (long range model) per car I believe.

Post last edited on 01/10/2018 12:11:24

Message posted by Colin21 on 01/10/2018 at 12:55pm
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Well as I said it's all largely hypothetical to me anyway, as I'll never be able to afford a BEV, but it is a subject that interests me. As a child seeing milk floats and the like, I often wondered why they didn't make electric cars. In the 1950s the railway even used some battery electric articulated trucks for local goods deliveries, so there's nothing new. I believe that one of the very first cars built was battery powered, but for various reasons they just didn't catch on.

I still think that it will be the infrastructure that will slow the progress of BEVs more than anything. I am inclined to think that with the current rate of progress and all the obstacles, it will be probably 40 years before they are really mainstream, so I won't be around to see it. I would love to be proved wrong though.

The current range wouldn't be a problem to me at all, except when I want to tow my caravan. It would be no problem for me to charge at home overnight, and I rarely do more than 50 miles in any one day now, except when I am away on holiday. I live in a village, but about 4 bus routes pass through here, and we have a railway station on a direct line into London only 5 minutes walk away. I get free bus travel, and being a retired train driver I get quite a lot of free train travel too. However, those are only my circumstances, other people's circumstances are very different. For them a BEV at the present stage of development would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

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Message posted by ST1100 on 02/10/2018 at 7:48am
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Quote: Originally posted by Francais on 30/9/2018
Yep saxo, and that is one of the reasons why I am so interested in BEV's, just about the only maintenance is keeping the windscreen washer tank topped up.
One Tesla owner reported only needing to change brake pads at 250,000 miles!, that's regenerative braking for you.

But I do find it odd that most BEV's have a regular 12v Lead Acid battery to keep all the dials going etc, firstly why is the 12v battery not lithium ion, and secondly, why are they not simply tapping 12v of the main battery pack.

It's a small niggle, I guess they use a 12v Lead Acid battery as they are cheap, maybe 10 a pop at cost, also I guess they need a separate 12v battery, in case the main battery pack goes flat, so that instruments and controls can remain active.



In an Electric and Hybrid the 12 volt battery keeps all the electrical system running while your car is parked. This includes the security system, the key fob sensors, the clock, and the memory in many of the computer systems. This is a fairly small drain but it adds up 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The 12 volt battery also has to have enough power to start up the computers and everything else that was left on before the high voltage battery system is turned on.

The reason the high voltage battery is not used for this load when the car is park is that it could easily drain the high voltage battery enough to shorten its life. So if you leave you car parked too long the 12 volt battery gets sacrificed and it is far cheaper to replace than the high voltage battery.

Once the high voltage battery system is turned on a high voltage to 12 volt converter turns on that produces about 14 volts. At this voltage the sealed 12 volt battery charges and will not over charge but it is a slower charge rate than you might be used to.

Message posted by Francais on 02/10/2018 at 8:39am
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Yep ST1100, guess I answered my own question.

Many owners of BEV's have upgraded the 12v Lead Acid that came fitted to the vehicle for the Lithium Ion equivalent, albeit at great cost.

It could be argued to be a pointless upgrade, although typically a Lead Acid battery may only have a life of 5 years, where as a Lithium Ion battery could be good for the life of the car, who knows?.

Message posted by blueexpo97 on 02/10/2018 at 10:56am
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Exactly, who knows?

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Message posted by Colin21 on 02/10/2018 at 12:22pm
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That is the problem, there are too many unknowns.

Will a BEV's battery last 10 years? Who knows. Until thousands of them have been around for 10 years, operating under very different real-world conditions, nobody knows. As we have seen from the dieselgate scandal, test conditions can be very different from real life.

I think the old milk-float batteries lasted many years, and they were very "old tech", but they generally did the same thing every day, and plugged into the same charger every night. Cars won't operate like that at all. Maybe some batteries will last 10 years or more, while others only last 2 years because they get abused. Will rapid-charging shorten the life of the batteries? It certainly shortened the lives of older batteries when I worked in that industry, but that was many years ago.

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Message posted by saxo1 on 02/10/2018 at 1:41pm
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" Nissan estimated that fewer than 5 batteries are replaced per year worldwide; about 0.012% of all Leafs since introduction."
They give an 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty,whichever comes first, which would indicate that realistically they expect them to last 10 years at least to be able to afford that warranty.
The cost of batteries has dropped dramatically since the first car was made and is predicted to drop further.
Rapid charging will reduce the capacity but with an 8 year warranty it shouldn't be a major problem for too many people.
Over 320,000 leafs have been sold so far.
saxo1

Message posted by Colin21 on 02/10/2018 at 2:03pm
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Someone I knew had a Leaf a few years back, but I don't know if he still has it or how good it has been, as I lost contact with him when he moved home. It would be interesting to find out how he got on with it if only I knew where he went. He loved it, but had only recently bought it new just shortly before he moved.

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Message posted by Francais on 02/10/2018 at 2:57pm
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Yep, the Leaf has now come of age, the latest with 235 miles range, and in 18 months time there will be another model with over 310 mile range, perfect timing to give Tesla a run for there money against the Model 3 and later the Model Y.

300+ miles is the sweet spot, ample for most folk, and with fast charging makes long journeys dooable.

Message posted by Mitchamitri on 02/10/2018 at 3:40pm
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I really look forward to alternatives to ice to be more available and realistic. Got to say though currently at 27k I rule out the leaf. Also it's a seriously not good looking vehicle even in the new design !!


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