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Subject Topic: Are electric cars the future
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Message posted by martin73423/12/2021 at 11:16am
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Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by martin734 on 22/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 22/12/2021
Still far to restrictive for my needs with such a short range .
I tow to Spain every winter and summer a distance of 1200 miles only requiring 3 fill ups on route and a journey time of 3 full days and two overnight campsite stays .
Until they start producing battery cars which can tow 300 miles without the need to plug in I couldn't consider such a vehicle and am not prepared to put up the inconvenience of so many enforced recharging stops


I feel exactly the same. Until I can get an electric car that has the same 400+ mile range as my current vehicles and can recharge anywhere in the same time it takes to refuel, then I have no interest in getting one. The running costs are totally irrelevant, I don't care how cheap they are to run if they are not practical or convenient to use.

Leasing is simply not an option as the vehicle would have to be quite heavily modified for it to be useful. This would include the fitment of a coupled braking system for trailers over 3500kg, a winch, auxiliary lighting and auxiliary power supplies. Though I very much doubt that any BEV would be able to be modified like that anyway.


Post last edited on 22/12/2021 19:59:36



Martin what your describing sounds more like a commercial vehicle.


Bessie






My 130 is actually classed as dual-purpose vehicle and is taxed and registered as private/light goods vehicle. It is a 4 door 5 seat pickup with a max gross weight of 3500kg.

Message posted by Colin2123/12/2021 at 12:39pm
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Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Colin your car is almost 14 years old, Kia already makes a car similar to what you have.
So 14 years from now it will be available who knows what the cost will be, but then again everything goes up in 14 years

Bessie



Yes that is my point. In 14 years time I will be 86 if I'm still around. Will I still be driving then, that is the question?

I'm hoping my X Trail will see out my driving days, and if it lasts as long as my previous Volvo V70 it should last me until I am nearly 80. The Volvo is now nearly 22 years old and looking online it is still taxed and MOTd. Presumably therefore it is still in use. Since I sold it two years ago it has done over 40,000 miles. My X Trail has over 100,000 miles to go to get to the mileage my old Volvo has on the clock now.

The other big question is would a 14 year old BEV still have the range in its batteries to do the mileage I need between charges? Personally I am inclined to think that although the BEVs will certainly last that long if they have the same build quality as today's cars, but will the batteries? My X Trail still does as many miles on a tankful as it did when it was new, give or take a few mpg.



-------------
Best Regards,
Colin

Message posted by neil and lena23/12/2021 at 12:47pm
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1st day DG to Eurotunnel 395 miles overnight stop C&MC site Blackhorse farm

2nd day Eurotunnel Calais to Orcet nr Clermont Ferrand 448 miles overnight stop
Camping Le Clos Auroy

3rd day Orcet to Sitges camping Vilanova park 410 miles

total mileage from home 1253 miles

Vehicle 2017 Kia Sorento 15.5 gallons fuel capacity (71 litres) 200bhp 6 speed
average consumption 27-28 mpg

caravan weight 1284 mtplm kg 2021 Swift sprite alpine 4 (previous van 2016 Sprite major 4
"       "     1432 mtplm

Car is full on leaving home

top up with fuel 3 times





Post last edited on 23/12/2021 12:57:23

Message posted by bessie50023/12/2021 at 12:48pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Colin your car is almost 14 years old, Kia already makes a car similar to what you have.
So 14 years from now it will be available who knows what the cost will be, but then again everything goes up in 14 years

Bessie



Yes that is my point. In 14 years time I will be 86 if I'm still around. Will I still be driving then, that is the question?

I'm hoping my X Trail will see out my driving days, and if it lasts as long as my previous Volvo V70 it should last me until I am nearly 80. The Volvo is now nearly 22 years old and looking online it is still taxed and MOTd. Presumably therefore it is still in use. Since I sold it two years ago it has done over 40,000 miles. My X Trail has over 100,000 miles to go to get to the mileage my old Volvo has on the clock now.

The other big question is would a 14 year old BEV still have the range in its batteries to do the mileage I need between charges? Personally I am inclined to think that although the BEVs will certainly last that long if they have the same build quality as today's cars, but will the batteries? My X Trail still does as many miles on a tankful as it did when it was new, give or take a few mpg.





At this moment in time colin nobody knows,what we do know is whatever the replacement battery price is now it will be drastically reduced in 14 years time.

Bessie


Message posted by bessie50023/12/2021 at 12:54pm
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Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 23/12/2021
1st day DG to Eurotunnel 395 miles overnight stop C&MC site Blackhorse farm

2nd day Eurotunnel Calais to Orcet nr Clermont Ferrand 448 miles overnight stop
Camping Le Clos Auroy

3rd day Orcet to Sitges camping Vilanova park 410 miles

total mileage from home 1253 miles

Vehicle 2017 Kia Sorento 15.5 gallons fuel capacity (71 litres) 200bhp 6 speed
average consumption 27-28 mpg

caravan weight 1284 mtplm kg

there satisfied ??





Are all them miles done without stopping once or even twice ?

Bessie

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Message posted by Colin2123/12/2021 at 12:58pm
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Yes that is the thing Bessie, there are too many unanswered questions regarding BEVs. All I do know is that if I was going to change my car it would probably have to be next year or very soon after. None of us knows how long we are going to be around for or how long we will be able to continue driving. I'm certainly not looking to be forecasting any change of cars in 14 years time. If my body felt the same age as I am in my head (about 35) I may think differently. Unfortunately my body knows I'm more than twice that.

I only really have a state pension coming in and very little savings, so my pocket dictates quite a lot. I like the idea of BEVs, and would have one like a shot if I could afford one now that was suitable for my needs, but that's just a pipe dream.


-------------
Best Regards,
Colin

Message posted by neil and lena23/12/2021 at 1:09pm
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Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 23/12/2021
1st day DG to Eurotunnel 395 miles overnight stop C&MC site Blackhorse farm

2nd day Eurotunnel Calais to Orcet nr Clermont Ferrand 448 miles overnight stop
Camping Le Clos Auroy

3rd day Orcet to Sitges camping Vilanova park 410 miles

total mileage from home 1253 miles

Vehicle 2017 Kia Sorento 15.5 gallons fuel capacity (71 litres) 200bhp 6 speed
average consumption 27-28 mpg

caravan weight 1284 mtplm kg

there satisfied ??





Are all them miles done without stopping once or even twice ?

Bessie




I drive 4.5 hours 45 mins break (occasionally less) and then another 4.5 hours which is easily achievable
Sometimes I'll do 10hrs actual driving in a day
more than used to it as worked as a European and UK long distance HGV driver and perfectly legal for commercial drivers


only use toll roads quickest route possible and have an emovis tag which means I don't have to stop at the peages

Post last edited on 23/12/2021 13:28:31

Message posted by tdrees via mobile 23/12/2021 at 2:56pm
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Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Colin your car is almost 14 years old, Kia already makes a car similar to what you have.
So 14 years from now it will be available who knows what the cost will be, but then again everything goes up in 14 years

Bessie



Yes that is my point. In 14 years time I will be 86 if I'm still around. Will I still be driving then, that is the question?

I'm hoping my X Trail will see out my driving days, and if it lasts as long as my previous Volvo V70 it should last me until I am nearly 80. The Volvo is now nearly 22 years old and looking online it is still taxed and MOTd. Presumably therefore it is still in use. Since I sold it two years ago it has done over 40,000 miles. My X Trail has over 100,000 miles to go to get to the mileage my old Volvo has on the clock now.

The other big question is would a 14 year old BEV still have the range in its batteries to do the mileage I need between charges? Personally I am inclined to think that although the BEVs will certainly last that long if they have the same build quality as today's cars, but will the batteries? My X Trail still does as many miles on a tankful as it did when it was new, give or take a few mpg.





At this moment in time colin nobody knows,what we do know is whatever the replacement battery price is now it will be drastically reduced in 14 years time.

Bessie





One thing we do know is that there are Teslas around today that are 8 years old and have done 300,000 miles with only 8-10% range loss. We also know that EV battery chemistry and management has improved since those Teslas came to the market, so todays 5th gen EVs are likely to outlast them by some margin.

Message posted by martin73423/12/2021 at 3:27pm
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Quote: Originally posted by tdrees on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
Colin your car is almost 14 years old, Kia already makes a car similar to what you have.
So 14 years from now it will be available who knows what the cost will be, but then again everything goes up in 14 years

Bessie



Yes that is my point. In 14 years time I will be 86 if I'm still around. Will I still be driving then, that is the question?

I'm hoping my X Trail will see out my driving days, and if it lasts as long as my previous Volvo V70 it should last me until I am nearly 80. The Volvo is now nearly 22 years old and looking online it is still taxed and MOTd. Presumably therefore it is still in use. Since I sold it two years ago it has done over 40,000 miles. My X Trail has over 100,000 miles to go to get to the mileage my old Volvo has on the clock now.

The other big question is would a 14 year old BEV still have the range in its batteries to do the mileage I need between charges? Personally I am inclined to think that although the BEVs will certainly last that long if they have the same build quality as today's cars, but will the batteries? My X Trail still does as many miles on a tankful as it did when it was new, give or take a few mpg.





At this moment in time colin nobody knows,what we do know is whatever the replacement battery price is now it will be drastically reduced in 14 years time.

Bessie





One thing we do know is that there are Teslas around today that are 8 years old and have done 300,000 miles with only 8-10% range loss. We also know that EV battery chemistry and management has improved since those Teslas came to the market, so todays 5th gen EVs are likely to outlast them by some margin.


Tell that to this guy! https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10339169/Owner-blows-Tesla-protest-17-000........


Message posted by saxo123/12/2021 at 4:25pm
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I saw on you tube video where they were checking the highest costs that Warranty Direct had to pay out under their warranty the winner was £22,000 plus to replace a Porch Carrera engine at 66,000 miles!
there are always exceptions!
There have been app 1 Tesla car fire for every 2o5 million miles run compared to the average of ! in every 19 million miles of the petrol engine cars!
saxo1

Post last edited on 23/12/2021 16:34:32

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Message posted by bessie500 via mobile 23/12/2021 at 5:47pm
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So already you can buy an aftermarket battery for 1/4 of the full manufactures price.
Can you imagine what that will be like in a few more years

Bessie

Message posted by Colin2123/12/2021 at 7:44pm
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Quote: Originally posted by bessie500 on 23/12/2021
So already you can buy an aftermarket battery for 1/4 of the full manufactures price.
Can you imagine what that will be like in a few more years

Bessie



That is great news, as long as those after-market batteries are every bit as good as the original equipment and not simply cheap poorly-made copies. Often this is the case with other things but not always. I am not a fan of "brands" often opting for cheaper alternatives, but EV batteries are as yet an unknown quantity. Only time will tell.


-------------
Best Regards,
Colin

Message posted by neil and lena27/12/2021 at 6:42pm
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Quote: Originally posted by blueexpo97 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 22/12/2021
Still far to restrictive for my needs with such a short range .
I tow to Spain every winter and summer a distance of 1200 miles only requiring 3 fill ups on route and a journey time of 3 full days and two overnight campsite stays .
Until they start producing battery cars which can tow 300 miles without the need to plug in I couldn't consider such a vehicle and am not prepared to put up the inconvenience of so many enforced recharging stops



n&l I'm intersted in your trip, can you give me more info please.
Whereabouts in Scotland do you start from and do you overnight on the way to Kent, assuming you cross down South.
What vehicle do you tow with to achieve such good results.

Thanks.




I've answered your query although I get the feeling you disbelieved my original post

Message posted by tdrees via mobile 28/12/2021 at 8:31am
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Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 27/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by blueexpo97 on 23/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by neil and lena on 22/12/2021
Still far to restrictive for my needs with such a short range .
I tow to Spain every winter and summer a distance of 1200 miles only requiring 3 fill ups on route and a journey time of 3 full days and two overnight campsite stays .
Until they start producing battery cars which can tow 300 miles without the need to plug in I couldn't consider such a vehicle and am not prepared to put up the inconvenience of so many enforced recharging stops



n&l I'm intersted in your trip, can you give me more info please.
Whereabouts in Scotland do you start from and do you overnight on the way to Kent, assuming you cross down South.
What vehicle do you tow with to achieve such good results.

Thanks.




I've answered your query although I get the feeling you disbelieved my original post


I agree that if you tow 400 miles a day over 3 days, and only stop every 200 miles (4.5 hours) then an EV tow car is not for you. If on the other hand you are prepared to stop every 2 1/4 hours for 25 mins or so, the latest generation of 800v based EVs would make the same trip without much additional time at all. For me, the key thing is that new EVs can tow well and can tow reasonable distance with just a little change in mindset and behaviour.
Is it worth that change in mindset? Well that depends on what you want out of your car both solo and towing, and whether or not having an EV is important to you.
For me personally, the minor inconvenience of the shortened range when towing, is more than made up for by the EV towing experience and the Solo driving that the EV provides when both on site and at home. I have a second tow car that can (and previously has) done all my trips on just one refuel stop, but I have stopped using it and choose to use the EV because the total package experience is sooo much better. But itís a personal choice.



Message posted by Colin2128/12/2021 at 12:51pm
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Quote: Originally posted by tdrees on 28/12/2021
I agree that if you tow 400 miles a day over 3 days, and only stop every 200 miles (4.5 hours) then an EV tow car is not for you. If on the other hand you are prepared to stop every 2 1/4 hours for 25 mins or so, the latest generation of 800v based EVs would make the same trip without much additional time at all. For me, the key thing is that new EVs can tow well and can tow reasonable distance with just a little change in mindset and behaviour.
Is it worth that change in mindset? Well that depends on what you want out of your car both solo and towing, and whether or not having an EV is important to you.
For me personally, the minor inconvenience of the shortened range when towing, is more than made up for by the EV towing experience and the Solo driving that the EV provides when both on site and at home. I have a second tow car that can (and previously has) done all my trips on just one refuel stop, but I have stopped using it and choose to use the EV because the total package experience is sooo much better. But itís a personal choice.



It is only a personal choice if you have money. For many people if BEVs really are the future, which I personally am yet to be convinced of, then the choice is going to be sticking with what they already have or giving up driving. That is certainly what it will probably be for me and many others like me, and there are a lot more of them than some people realise. Witness the number of 10+ years old cars on the road today.

The big difference when talking about range is that a 20 year old petrol or diesel car will do roughly the same distance on a tankful as it did when it was new, but the same can't be said for BEVs. Unless it has had its batteries replaced recently, a 15 year old BEV probably won't do half the mileage between charges that it did when it was new. It is all very well talking about range when discussing new cars, but what about all those who can only afford 10+ year old cars? Range is just as important for them too. If I have to give up my car because I can no longer afford one it won't be more than a big inconvenience because I am retired, but many people who are currently driving 10+ year old cars are key workers on low incomes. What happens to them?


-------------
Best Regards,
Colin

Message posted by Ancient Uncle28/12/2021 at 5:25pm
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Exactly, Colin.
I know someone who can not afford much in the way of a car, but needs one. So she buys an old banger for £2k-£3k and just runs it until it gives up. One of them kept going for 4years. Try that with BEV.
I think we will need a different concept. Not owning a car but perhaps group ownership. After all, ours now spends days sitting on the driveway doing nothing. Mostly used these days for towing and the occasional journey we can not do by bus.


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