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Subject Topic: Are electric cars the future
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Message posted by martin73420/8/2021 at 4:02pm
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Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
Hydrogen, doesnít make sense for small cars and vans. You fill it up with hydrogen, then you put it through a fuel cell to create electricity which then drives an electric motor and / or charges a battery

BEV plug in and charge the battery.   Drive the motor it cuts out the fuel cell which is the middle man so adds to the overall inefficiency.    Add to this most hydrogen today is produced in a very energy intensive way and CO2 releasing way.


Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles do not usually use a battery, the fuel cell is the battery. The fuel cell has a lot of advantages over the battery; such as a much lower weight, a much, much longer lifespan with no degradation of performance and a much faster recharge time. Yes, Hydrogen production uses a lot of electricity, but so does the production of Lithium Ion batteries, as does the generation of the electricity needed to power BEV's. As we move towards totally renewable energy generation, Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will become better than their battery equivalent in almost every way.


Message posted by saxo120/8/2021 at 4:42pm
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Quote "Personally I don't see BEVs as the future at all. Not enough electricity is generated anyway to power the number of them needed to replace all the fossil-fuelled cars we have today."

The National Grid say there is adequate capacity to charge any uptake in the use of BEVs,the main problem is ensuring that all aren't charged at the same time.
Even if we all switched to BEVs overnight they estimate that we would use less electricity than the Peak demand of 2002!
saxo1

Message posted by Colin2120/8/2021 at 4:52pm
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My other concern is that as far as diesel consumption in particular is concerned, cars are only the tip of the iceberg. If you think of all the other things that we have become totally dependent on, diesel engines power the vast majority of them. Cars are virtually the only things left that run on petrol, apart from very small usually hand-held tools and appliances. Diesel powers virtually everything else, so until a viable alternative to the diesel engine is found, we are stuck with it, and nothing else comes close. What else could power a 100 ton mobile crane, a bulldozer, or a massive cargo ship? Trains and trams are about the only means of transport where electricity is a viable long-term means of propulsion, but that is only because they don't rely on carrying their energy source onboard in most cases. However, not all lines are electrified and we are still even building some without electrification.


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Message posted by boff20/8/2021 at 4:54pm
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Just a couple of links showing the relative efficiencies of BEV vs Fuel cell.   There are lots more are out there.   If you can point to studies showing the opposite please do. As far as I am aware fuel cell vehicles do have a batteries both to store regenerative power and provide an extra boost during acceleration.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html#

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-battery-powered-vehicles-stack-hydrogen.html

Message posted by saxo120/8/2021 at 5:11pm
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There are already large ships operating on battery power.
Corvus has installed large battery packs in 400 ships worldwide 100 of them are all electric propulsion!
saxo1

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Message posted by martin73420/8/2021 at 5:24pm
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Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
Just a couple of links showing the relative efficiencies of BEV vs Fuel cell.   There are lots more are out there.   If you can point to studies showing the opposite please do. As far as I am aware fuel cell vehicles do have a batteries both to store regenerative power and provide an extra boost during acceleration.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html#

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-battery-powered-vehicles-stack-hydrogen.html


Here you go https://observer.com/2020/11/hyperion-xr1-hydrogen-cell-car-battery-debate/

https://www2.deloitte.com/cn/en/pages/about-deloitte/articles/pr-fcevs-to-be-cheap........

https://www.eqmagpro.com/lithium-ion-batteries-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-which-is-the-........

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-future-autos/story?id=74583475

https://www.businessinsider.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-teslas-biggest-threat-2019........

Message posted by martin73420/8/2021 at 5:32pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Colin21 on 20/8/2021
My other concern is that as far as diesel consumption in particular is concerned, cars are only the tip of the iceberg. If you think of all the other things that we have become totally dependent on, diesel engines power the vast majority of them. Cars are virtually the only things left that run on petrol, apart from very small usually hand-held tools and appliances. Diesel powers virtually everything else, so until a viable alternative to the diesel engine is found, we are stuck with it, and nothing else comes close. What else could power a 100 ton mobile crane, a bulldozer, or a massive cargo ship? Trains and trams are about the only means of transport where electricity is a viable long-term means of propulsion, but that is only because they don't rely on carrying their energy source onboard in most cases. However, not all lines are electrified and we are still even building some without electrification.




I agree, I think the future will continue to be a mix of electric and internal combustion powered vehicles for at least another 3-4 decades, if not longer. What we will see is the development of much greener synthetic fuels and bio fuels for applications that just aren't suitable for electrical power. As I have said earlier, as there is not yet an electrical vehicle, nor is there likely to be any time soon, that can practically replace my current vehicles, I will continue to use my petrol Land Rover and diesel tractors until I am no longer working or driving.


Message posted by boff20/8/2021 at 5:52pm
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Quote: Originally posted by martin734 on 20/8/2021
Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
Just a couple of links showing the relative efficiencies of BEV vs Fuel cell.   There are lots more are out there.   If you can point to studies showing the opposite please do. As far as I am aware fuel cell vehicles do have a batteries both to store regenerative power and provide an extra boost during acceleration.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html#

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-battery-powered-vehicles-stack-hydrogen.html




Here you go https://observer.com/2020/11/hyperion-xr1-hydrogen-cell-car-battery-debate/

https://www2.deloitte.com/cn/en/pages/about-deloitte/articles/pr-fcevs-to-be-cheap........

https://www.eqmagpro.com/lithium-ion-batteries-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-which-is-the-........

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-future-autos/story?id=74583475

https://www.businessinsider.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-teslas-biggest-threat-2019........




I think we will have to agree to differ.   Although I notice you havenít addressed the relative inefficiency of FCV in a well to wheel basis.

I ve had a BEV for the last 6 months and these are my observations. Firstly I doubt, unfortunately , that battery electrics will make good towing vehicle's.   This is purely due to range.   All aspects power, torque and stabilty due to weight make them ideal candidates. Everyone goes on about the time to charge. 99.9% of the time mine takes about 1 minute thatís 30 seconds to plug in and 30 seconds to unplug in the morning.   On cheap rate electricity it also costs less than 1.5p per mile to drive.   Then add in the quietness and smoothness of motor is remarkable. Both my wife and I have independently remarked how crude our 8speed automatic tow car feels in comparison.   I would suggest any who hasnít driven one tryís one before they knock it.   If it does turn out that hydrogen does turnout to be the future and there is a filling station within 150 miles then I will embrace it like a shot.

Message posted by Colin2120/8/2021 at 6:24pm
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Undoubtedly for many people a BEV would be more than suitable, including me for probably 90% of my driving, and I'd love one as a second vehicle, but for a huge number of low-income people they are a non-starter. It is still possible to buy a perfectly viable fossil-fuel vehicle for between £500 and £1,000, and for many that is the only way they can own. My own budget is usually around £500 to £800 plus whatever I can get for the vehicle I am currently running, which rules out any possibility of owning a BEV. That is the reality for a great many people, and I doubt whether any BEV with a decent life left in its battery will ever get to that level.

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Colin

Message posted by martin73420/8/2021 at 7:16pm
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Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
Quote: Originally posted by martin734 on 20/8/2021
Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
Just a couple of links showing the relative efficiencies of BEV vs Fuel cell.   There are lots more are out there.   If you can point to studies showing the opposite please do. As far as I am aware fuel cell vehicles do have a batteries both to store regenerative power and provide an extra boost during acceleration.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery--that-is-the-question.html#

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-battery-powered-vehicles-stack-hydrogen.html




Here you go https://observer.com/2020/11/hyperion-xr1-hydrogen-cell-car-battery-debate/

https://www2.deloitte.com/cn/en/pages/about-deloitte/articles/pr-fcevs-to-be-cheap........

https://www.eqmagpro.com/lithium-ion-batteries-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell-which-is-the-........

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-future-autos/story?id=74583475

https://www.businessinsider.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-teslas-biggest-threat-2019........




I think we will have to agree to differ.   Although I notice you havenít addressed the relative inefficiency of FCV in a well to wheel basis.

I ve had a BEV for the last 6 months and these are my observations. Firstly I doubt, unfortunately , that battery electrics will make good towing vehicle's.   This is purely due to range.   All aspects power, torque and stabilty due to weight make them ideal candidates. Everyone goes on about the time to charge. 99.9% of the time mine takes about 1 minute thatís 30 seconds to plug in and 30 seconds to unplug in the morning.   On cheap rate electricity it also costs less than 1.5p per mile to drive.   Then add in the quietness and smoothness of motor is remarkable. Both my wife and I have independently remarked how crude our 8speed automatic tow car feels in comparison.   I would suggest any who hasnít driven one tryís one before they knock it.   If it does turn out that hydrogen does turnout to be the future and there is a filling station within 150 miles then I will embrace it like a shot.



I really couldn't give a rat's arse about relative efficiencies. What I want is practicality and ease of use. What I need from a vehicle is that it does everything I need it to do as easily as possible. A vehicle that has a range of 200-300 miles and then needs 4 or more hours to recharge is completely useless to me. I frequently drive more than 200 miles in a day and as I work in rural and remote locations, mains charging of any sort is impossible, let alone fast charging.
If you live and work in a town or city and don't drive very far or tow anything or carry much cargo then I am sure that a BEV is perfect, but for me the lack of range, the long charging time and the relatively short lifespan of the batteries means that any BEV is just not good enough.


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Message posted by boff20/8/2021 at 10:51pm
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More than 200 miles per day?   Well within the range of my BEV today. Not some maybe technology tomorrow.    

Message posted by Bob6120/8/2021 at 11:56pm
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Just drive through the back streets of any town and see how many people do not have off road parking. How are they supposed to charge electric vehicles without have cables running across the pavements everywhere...not to mention people nicking cables for their own cars or plugging into someone else's supply?

For everyone to have electric cars they are going to have to run electric cables through every road in the country and have power supply posts at the kerbside outside every house...an almost impossible task and the cost would be out of the question.

They will have to come up with more workable ideas and fuel sources.

Message posted by boff21/8/2021 at 10:13am
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These back streets old Terrace housing?   Were they originally built with mains electricity?   Clue the answer is no. Do they have electricity now?   Clue the answer is yes.   So anything is possible generally if you want or need it to be.   

Message posted by saxo121/8/2021 at 10:21am
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A gov survey states that app 2 thirds of domestic dwellings have off street parking and of those that don't a large proportion of the occupiers don't own cars.
There are various solutions to the problem, destination charging,work place charging,lamp post chargers to name but a few.
saxo1

Message posted by martin73421/8/2021 at 12:50pm
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Quote: Originally posted by boff on 20/8/2021
More than 200 miles per day?   Well within the range of my BEV today. Not some maybe technology tomorrow.    



What vehicle do you have? How long on a standard speed charger does it take to charge from 10% to 100% charged? can it do 200 miles at an average of about 50 mph at night with the headlights on? Can it do 200 miles while carrying a 1000 kg payload or towing a trailer? Can it drive 200 miles to a site in the middle of nowhere with no means of charging and then drive 200 miles back the next day? These are all things that I do regularly for work and which is why a BEV will be unlikely to ever be a suitable vehicle whereas an FCV that can be refuelled in 5 minutes would be suitable.

Message posted by saxo121/8/2021 at 1:36pm
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" FCV that can be refuelled in 5 minutes would be suitable."
Providing you can find a Hydrogen pump within 200 miles!
saxo!


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