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Subject Topic: Towing with an EV - trip report
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Message posted by saxo111/12/2021 at 10:21am
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"To convert a vehicle to hydrogen, Caigan Vehicle Technologies will remove existing engine and fuel systems, and retrofit a hydrogen storage tank, a fuel cell to convert the hydrogen gas to electricity, a traction battery and an electric drive motor."
Far too expensive to be worth while, far better to purchase a vehicle designed for the purpose!

saxo1

Message posted by tdrees via mobile 11/12/2021 at 2:32pm
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It is theoretically possible to convert a petrol ICE engine to run on hydrogen too. All you need is an entirely new cylinder head, new injection system, new engine management system, new fuel tank and delivery system resulting in about 30% less power and about 60% less range than the petrol system, with 50% higher fuel costs. And an engine that still emits NOx fumes.

Message posted by saxo111/12/2021 at 2:47pm
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Add to that the pre-ignition problems, hydrogen leaking into the sump with possible engine fires and as the result of hydrogen exhaust being water the possibility of it passing the piston rings and contaminating the oil resulting in increased possibility of engine failure!
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Message posted by navver11/12/2021 at 7:38pm
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My feeling is that hydrogen will be needed in vast quantities for aviation, home heating and possibly some industries etc. It's probably best to use it for those applications where there isn't a viable electric alternative.

Battery cars will be fine for the vast majority of users and can be charged from renewable electricity, solar/wind/hydro etc.

Some road vehicles will need hydrogen no doubt such as possibly heavy lorries, towing vehicles etc so allow that.

It's good to have battery cars because they can be used as back up reserve power feeding into the grid if there is a sudden drop causing blackouts as well as a useful means of evening out supply and demand by allowing smart metering to choose when to charge for say 2 hours during the 10 hour night period while they are plugged in. Say a 1 hour charge at 1.00am and another at 4.00am as determined by the supply/demand balance.

Message posted by iank0112/12/2021 at 8:37am
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Quote: Originally posted by tdrees on 09/12/2021
Quote: Originally posted by martin734 on 09/12/2021
Electricity prices have increased massively this year and may continue to do, albeit at a much slower rate, for quite some time yet so it may come to a point where hydrogen and battery vehicles are not too far apart in terms of running costs, same with the production cost of the vehicles.


Green Hydrogen is produced from electricity, so its cost is directly related to that of electricity. It will never be cheaper than electricity simply because it needs more electricity to produce than then energy you get into the tank.



Perhaps with current technology it may be more expensive, however electric is not infinite as we reply on other countries to top up our electric supply. Also if a network goes done like very recently, they do not have the manpower to restore the area within hours never mind days or weeks. A EV can probably supply a household for about 2 days, but then the EV cannot move and needs to wait until power is restored.
I was under the impression that a hydrogen fuel vehicle was a lot cleaner than any EV as it did not emit NOx fumes plus you do not have to mine and use child labour for the materials which will become very limited in the future and probably more expensive.
IMHO hydrogen is the way forward even if at the current time it is more expensive to process as it is a lot cleaner plus being more environmentally friendly and does not have to be transported halfway across the world.

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Message posted by saxo112/12/2021 at 9:28am
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If we use imported electricity to produce hydrogen that won't improve the electricity situation ,one of the main reasons we import electricity is that it is cheaper not specifically to prop up the UK supply.
The shortage of manpower to restore supply isn't necessarily a problem, access to the affected area is one of the main problems with fallen trees being the main reason.
A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is virtually NOX free but you were suggesting modifying an ICE to run on hydrogen that is a different, because you are Burning the gas mixed with air which will produce NOX, not as much as a petrol engine but it will vary according to the Air/Hydrogen mix and to get the minimum amount of NOX the engine power is dramatically reduced together with the increase in NOX emissions.
Battery technology is advancing rapidly with many different types being developed and recycling is in it's infancy reducing the need for the raw materials used at present.
Until we get to a situation where we can produce Hydrogen from renewable sources we will still need to import fossil fuel to produce hydrogen which uses more electricity than to produce than is gained.
saxo1

Message posted by tdrees13/12/2021 at 11:12am
Outfit:  Bailey Unicorn S3 Vigo + Polestar 2     Location:  Northamptonshire
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Quote: Originally posted by iank01 on 12/12/2021
Perhaps with current technology it may be more expensive, however electric is not infinite as we reply on other countries to top up our electric supply.


This is very true, but it's the reason NOT to use hydrogen. Green Hydrogen is produced by using green electricity. The more hydrogen you need, the more electricity you need, but manufacture of hydrogen, and using it are not efficient. I.e. if you use the electricty directly in a battery, you can drive around 2 to 3 time as far for the same original energy.

Quote:
Also if a network goes done like very recently, they do not have the manpower to restore the area within hours never mind days or weeks. A EV can probably supply a household for about 2 days, but then the EV cannot move and needs to wait until power is restored.


If used carefully, my EV has sufficient battery capacity to run my house for about 5 - 7 days. (running fridge / freezer / heating / lighting / charging phones). I would be entirely possible to run for say 4 days leaving me 20% (40 miles) to go and find a charger to recharge on, and bring that electricity back.

Quote:
I was under the impression that a hydrogen fuel vehicle was a lot cleaner than any EV as it did not emit NOx fumes plus you do not have to mine and use child labour for the materials which will become very limited in the future and probably more expensive.


Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles do not emit NOx, but they need batteries and other materials in the fuel cell them selves. ICE engines that burn hydrogen DO emit NOx. It's a byproduct of the heat of the combustion process and inevitable if you burn stuff in air (80% nitrogen).

Using child labour in Cobalt artisanal mining in the DRC was stopped some years ago. Have a look at the recent BBC Panorama hatchet job on Tesla to see.http:// https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011wn5

That is not to say that child labour definitely does not happen somewhere in the world for some mining (probably lithium), but it that is the case then we need to stop buying mobile phones and tablets and computers. The supply chain for minerals and metals is being cleaned up by companies such as Tesla, Volvo / Polestar, Kia / Hyundai as they see the PR face of their need to be ethical as well as green as being important.



IMHO hydrogen is the way forward even if at the current time it is more expensive to process as it is a lot cleaner plus being more environmentally friendly and does not have to be transported halfway across the world.


I agree Hydrogen is far cleaner than oil or gas, and offers an alternative energy storage and transport mechanism to electricity. But the pure expense of using it will make it a niche solution for places where batteries are not possible (like Aero, shipping, large scale plant equipment, manufacturing etc). For passenger cars, batteries are simply cheaper and more usable for the foreseeable future.

Message posted by tdrees06/1/2022 at 3:16pm
Outfit:  Bailey Unicorn S3 Vigo + Polestar 2     Location:  Northamptonshire
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Quote: Originally posted by marg6 on 09/12/2021
as your car is only rated for upto 1500kgs towing how have you managed to get around that and also increase your payload limits?



Mi Marg6, Sorry - I missed your question when you asked.

The Vigo S3 is 1500 MTPLM from the factory. You can buy a "max weight upgrade" from Bailey. that will increase the MTPLM to 1550. Essentially, the chassis is de-rated rom the factory to allow for a wider range of car + caravan combos for those without B+E licences.

The Polestar is certified with up to 1500kg towed mass. As long as you keep the actual towed mass (as weighed, not plated) below 1500kg then it is within spec. It's important to remember that whatever load is on your towbar (nose weight) is not towed, but IS payload in the car. I always load the caravan to 90kg nose weight.

So I can load the caravan up to a maximum of 1550 KG (it must be inder its MTPLM).
The car is towing caravan weight less towbar weight (1550-90) - 1460kg.
The car must then be under both its maximum weight including the 90kg from the towbar load, and under its total train weight.

I keep a spreadsheet on which I add all the items that I put in the car (including the passengers) and the caravan. It then tells me how close I am to any particular limit so that I can stay within the law.



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