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Subject Topic: Hybrid Help Please Post Reply Post New Topic
Message posted by Dave1119/1/2022 at 2:57pm
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I am currently looking at changing my Range Rover Sport (3.0 Diesel) which will be 4 years old later this year, for a new towcar for my Swift Elegance 645 T/A.

I see that the Porsche Cayenne E hybrid won the 1700+ kgs award for that category of towcar with the Caravan and Motorhome Club , so went to view one at the local dealer.

However, I asked them a question which they couldnít answer and was hoping that a hybrid towcar owner on the forum might be able to answer for me?

Although the stats look impressive, The car would be essentially used for towing the caravan and I need to know that on a journey to south of France , Italy for example, and covering say 250 miles a day on autoroutes which would have little regenerative braking to top the E battery , would the car eventually end up on the 3.0 litre petrol engine, if so roughly how long would it last before the electric motor wasnít assisting the engine?

I pointed out to the dealer that it would be unlikely we could charge the car overnight on the site stops as the site supply would be plugged to the caravan and even so the power on European sites may only be 4-6 amps, which wouldn't do much for charging the car?

Without the Electric motor the torque has a substantial drop (although plenty with the engine still) but nevertheless I could end up touring much of the time on a 3.0 petrol engine instead of a very capable and economical diesel.

I rang the club to see if they had a more detailed report on the test for long motorway driving, but unfortunately it seems this is not part of the evaluation.

Any help on the use of a plug in hybrid would be helpful before decide what to do ?

Thanks

Message posted by tdrees19/1/2022 at 3:21pm
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Until I got my EV, I towed with a Volvo V60 D6 PHEV. 220ish HP on diesel and 75ish hp on Electric. The battery is about 9kwh giving around 20 to 25 miles of electric only range solo. When towing, using the car in hybrid mode (where it picks what to use when), it would tow in electric up to about 8 to 10 miles (on a dual carriageway), and then revert to the ICE for running. Impact on MPG would be huge, in so far as you would get what you expect from a 2.5 diesel towing a caravan, but impact in performance was negligible. Basically, the car would maintain sufficient charge in the battery from breaking or steady driving, such that if called for, the electric motor would be able to kick in along side or as an alternative to, the ICE when at very low speed or when accelerating hard, or when AWD was needed (ICE front, Electric rear).
I would say, you need to recognise that on long journeys, the economy you get will be based on the ICE, not on hybrid, but the performance will be close to the hybrid level.

Message posted by Dave1119/1/2022 at 11:57pm
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Hi tdrees
Thanks for the info, it gives me some idea but still not sure of how it would impact the consumption whilst towing ?
My main concern being is that if the electric power ends on day one of a holiday and I cant charge it , that I will be running for the rest of the journey on a 3.0 petrol engine , which on a trip to Italy or Croatia that we do, could vastly increase the fuel consumption?

I cant seem to find what happens to the consumption of a hybrid 3.0 litre petrol engine to tow a heavy caravan without potentially the electric power assistance over long journeys which could be many hundreds of miles?

I appreciate the Cayenne Hybrid may have won towcar of the year for the 1700+ kilos sector, but if its just tested on a test track and local drive it doesnít provide the answer as a long distance towcar for fuel consumption when the electric assistance expires?

The only reason I am cautious about a 3.0 petrol only engine for towing is that some years ago, I had a Ford Galaxy 2.8V6 petrol pulling at that time a Bailey Pageant Series 5 single axle and on motorway headwinds was achieving only about 10-12 mpg ?

I appreciate the latest petrol engines are far more efficient , but the fantastic hybrid consumption figures are based on the engine and electric motor working in unison.
To justify its class title , I need to be sure of what i can expect on long tours in Europe , towing a caravan?

It could be an expensive mistake to change to a hybrid this early in development, when the Diesel engine is just so efficient for towing, as much as I would like to start the change to a hybrid.





Message posted by billy via mobile 20/1/2022 at 7:42am
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You say you want a tow car for long distance towing. Why would you not stick with diesel ? If you are worried about diesel trade in prices in a few yrs times then take the hit in higher fuel costs now & buy the hybrid. Otherwise buy a new diesel which is better for the purpose you want it for.

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Message posted by tdrees via mobile 20/1/2022 at 8:08am
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Quote: Originally posted by Dave11 on 19/1/2022

Hi tdrees
Thanks for the info, it gives me some idea but still not sure of how it would impact the consumption whilst towing ?
My main concern being is that if the electric power ends on day one of a holiday and I cant charge it , that I will be running for the rest of the journey on a 3.0 petrol engine , which on a trip to Italy or Croatia that we do, could vastly increase the fuel consumption?

I cant seem to find what happens to the consumption of a hybrid 3.0 litre petrol engine to tow a heavy caravan without potentially the electric power assistance over long journeys which could be many hundreds of miles?

I appreciate the Cayenne Hybrid may have won towcar of the year for the 1700+ kilos sector, but if its just tested on a test track and local drive it doesnít provide the answer as a long distance towcar for fuel consumption when the electric assistance expires?

The only reason I am cautious about a 3.0 petrol only engine for towing is that some years ago, I had a Ford Galaxy 2.8V6 petrol pulling at that time a Bailey Pageant Series 5 single axle and on motorway headwinds was achieving only about 10-12 mpg ?

I appreciate the latest petrol engines are far more efficient , but the fantastic hybrid consumption figures are based on the engine and electric motor working in unison.
To justify its class title , I need to be sure of what i can expect on long tours in Europe , towing a caravan?

It could be an expensive mistake to change to a hybrid this early in development, when the Diesel engine is just so efficient for towing, as much as I would like to start the change to a hybrid.








Hi Dave11,

I did say, but you may have missed it (the formatting was terrible)!

The impact on MPG will be huge. It will basically be the same as towing with a 3L petrol will no assistance from electric. You will get a bit of MPG help, but really not much at all.

When towing, the vast proportion of your economy is derived from the aero efficiency of your outfit when at cruising speed. If you are towing long distance, then that cruise will be vast majority without electric assistance. I donít know what the WLTP specified electric only range is for the Panamera, but you can expect it to be half that number or less when towing.

Plug-in hybrid vehicles are designed to give maximum efficiency for shorter journeys (e.g your daily commute - which ideally would be inside the electric range) but have the flexibility for doing other tasks like towing.

If you are getting the new car primarily as a tow car (I.e. the majority of your miles are towed miles) then a PHEV may not make sense. If you are getting the car because you want a lower impact daily driver, that is also able to tow on occasion, then it may still be right for you.

I chose my EV as I wanted a great car for my daily use , that I could also used while towing. The advantage is I almost never public charge during daily use (charging from home) but have to charge every 2 hours when towing.

One other point. PHEVs ONLY work as a greener solution if you charge them every night. If you donít have the opportunity for home charging (I assume you do) then donít bother with one.

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Message posted by blueexpo9720/1/2022 at 9:15am
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Having read what tdrees has said the answer is simple, stick with diesel.

The January edition of Practical Caravan has a review of the Audi Q7 with the same petrol/hybrid set up as the Cayenne?, but obviously their review will only be local towing as well.

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Message posted by thomo newbies via mobile 20/1/2022 at 9:39am
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We've used a VW Passat GTE 1.4 PHEV (company car) for towing our 1500kg caravan for the last 4 years. Without towing, charge at home get approx 25 miles on pure electric. Average MPG tends to be 50ish. Towing when electric runs out, no change in performance / capability but MPG drops to between 22 - 25 mpg. We have towed to France and then when we arrived at campsite they had charging point outside reception which was free to use by paying Ä25 returnable deposit for card to access. We charged car over night at that when needed.
Overall for journeys we make, fact we charge at home PHEV has been cheaper for us, even though when towing it isn't as economical.
Hope that helps

Message posted by daveyjp20/1/2022 at 11:26am
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I don't think towing mpg should be seen in isolation, Consumption will be high, but how much towing will be done over the course of a year where battery will be used much more?

Battery top ups can be done during breaks of journey, it doesn't have to be at the campsite.

Potential performance drop is an issue if the motor adds significantly to power, but I suspect on motorway cruising the effect won't be significant,

I would also check the size of the fuel tank. Hybrids can often have smaller tanks than ICE to accommodate the battery and reflect the potential for higher mpg due to the electric motor. If you are only getting 10-15 mpg a 10-15 gallon tank would be a pain!

Message posted by blueexpo9720/1/2022 at 11:49am
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75ltr capacity in the Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7 Hybrids.

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Message posted by Dave1120/1/2022 at 12:20pm
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Thanks for all the useful replies, they indicate my concerns that its not yet time for me to change to a hybrid. Some replies mention a Q7 , over the years i have had 2 x Q7s both diesel and were great tow cars for a T/A van.

Iím leaning towards replacing my current RR Sport for another new diesel one. Plug in hybrids are too early in development in my opinion for touring with a caravan, at least until sites have on charging facilities.

Even most charging points in services only have a car parking space , often in the car only area.

I donít want the hassle of disconnecting the caravan to get charge into it either.

I do think if they are going to introduce hybrids into the towcar awards now , particularly if they are going to make them class winners , it should involve some long distance motorway runs to see what happens with range, performance and economy with a caravan in the weight segment its classed when the Ebattery dies out.

Post last edited on 20/01/2022 13:06:39

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Message posted by blueexpo9720/1/2022 at 1:36pm
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Probably a wise decision.

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Message posted by tdrees20/1/2022 at 2:31pm
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Quote: Originally posted by Dave11 on 20/1/2022
Thanks for all the useful replies, they indicate my concerns that its not yet time for me to change to a hybrid. Some replies mention a Q7 , over the years i have had 2 x Q7s both diesel and were great tow cars for a T/A van.

Iím leaning towards replacing my current RR Sport for another new diesel one. Plug in hybrids are too early in development in my opinion for touring with a caravan, at least until sites have on charging facilities.



Just to be clear, Plugin Hybrids will never have batteries that are suitable for towing long distance. That is not their design goal. They will likely never be better for towing than they are now.

Plugging in a hybrid during a journey is (in most cases) not useful. Because they have relatively small batteries they will charge at a low rate. 1 hours charge may yield 8 or just possibly 16 miles of range solo, as opposed to perhaps 200 to 500 in a full BEV.

Once you are parked on site, you generally CAN charge an PHEV (or even a full EV) from the caravan hookup. We have done and continue to do exactly that on sites with 10A and 16A hookup.

Quote:
Even most charging points in services only have a car parking space , often in the car only area.

I donít want the hassle of disconnecting the caravan to get charge into it either.



I would agree The whole point of a plug-in hybrid is that you can use is as a normal ICE car when on long journeys. That means that on long journeys it will behave just like an ICE car (or at least a regular hybrid).

Quote:
I do think if they are going to introduce hybrids into the towcar awards now , particularly if they are going to make them class winners , it should involve some long distance motorway runs to see what happens with range, performance and economy with a caravan in the weight segment its classed when the Ebattery dies out.

Post last edited on 20/01/2022 13:06:39



The value of a PHEV is that it can behave as either an ICE (long range) or a full (or almost full) EV (short range). If you never plan to do significant short range, they are fairly pointless (unless the intent is to reduce company car tax). If you do plan to do lots of short range, they can be very green and ecconomical. But if you are buying a car who's primary purpose is to tow, look else where.

If I am completely honest, the idea of a PHEV Porsche, especially the Panamera (though less so the Cayenne), is a bit of an odd one. Porsche is inherently a performance brand, aimed at producing dynamic cars with excellent performance. The Panamera is a continent crossing GT car designed for long journeys. PHEVs are designed for short journeys with much reduced power, and have reduced power when used with a mostly discharged battery. Kind of the opposite of what a Porsche is supposed to be. The Taycan is a whole different story, and one I can get very excited about!

Post last edited on 20/01/2022 14:35:59

Message posted by blueexpo9720/1/2022 at 2:35pm
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I thought we were talking Cayenne.

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Remember, if you buy something you bought it, not brought it.

Message posted by tdrees20/1/2022 at 3:29pm
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Quote: Originally posted by blueexpo97 on 20/1/2022
I thought we were talking Cayenne.



We are - I mentioned the Panamera (as well as the Cayenne) as an example of a PHEV that does not make much sense, and why. The OP was looking at the Cayenne, which as a primary use case tow car, also does not make much sense as a PHEV.

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For what it's worth, my opinion would be to stick to the Range Rover, you will be hard pressed to find a towcar that does everything as well as that does.

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The answer is simple. Judged purely on the requirement for long-distance towing, diesel is still the solution.

The benefit of PHEV is that you can complete short journeys (typically of about 20-30 miles) on battery power alone - therefore running costs will be significantly lower if you use the car for a 10-mile commute most days and can charge the battery at home overnight. However, if you want to go away for long journeys with a caravan a few times a year, the petrol engine is still capable of doing that. The downsides are that MPG will be much higher than for a diesel over the same long journey, and performance will also be weaker, but overall in those circumstances it could well be a compromise worth making.

The other benefit to a PHEV is if you're a company car driver, because the amount of tax you'll pay is much lower.

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