Quote: Originally posted by Bill Terry on 05/9/2013Good few years back, I worked at a motorhome & caravan sales company,I remember that they had 2 swift gazelle 6 birth m/h`s.They were used for tv crews etc,both had towbars on them,One was sold,few weeks later it came back, they said we can see day light through the floor at the rear of the van!we asked them what the hell have you been doing?replie."we have been towing the car"These vans have a large hang over from the rear axle, you cant tow a car with this m/h,only a small trailer.They got a nice repair bill.had to sort the chassis and reseal the floor to the body etc.They had been towing a car on a single axle trailer, and all the bounce on the towbar bend the chassis.
When we had a towbar made up for the Laika, Agrimark http://www.angliantrailers.co.uk/ would not do the work until they'd had a really good look at the Alko chassis.
They told us very similar tales of Motorhomes with long overhangs where there was nothing but a ply floor at the back and therefore totally unsuitable. Agrimark had been presented with remedial work just like you described.
Alko chassis are not supposed to be drilled and you have to either pick up on existing holes and/or fit properly machined bushes which is what we had to have.
Incidentally, the Laika chassis extends right to the back end
It always amuses me the way cost is cited. Anybody who can afford a £60k m/h & the lifestyle to go with can afford to stay on campsites if they want to so why boast about how they 'save money' by not paying out for campsites? Same with towing a car, I suppose a good argument for it would be that once you are parked up you have a small car to drive around local roads rather than the large car you would need to tow a large caravan.
Non campers might say that a large car/caravan or m/h towing car are both equally impractical to drive so no difference between the 2 really. Both are luxury purchases anyway so most important is to drive what does exactly what you want it to do in the way that works for you.
'Thanks Symbolife, just a shame that my slant on things tends to kill a post stone dead...... truth hurts i suppose
mick'
Its not the truth - just your opinion.
We use my lpg converted clio to get to work. I work days and my wife nights so we both use the same car. She uses her disco to do a few miles around town and to get to the stables. We use it to tow our caravan and also to tow our horse trailer.
It is a bit infantile calling caravans sheds as motorhomes are basically the same thing mounted on a van chassis.
the law needs to be changed so that sellers have to tell potential buyers that the car has been dragged behind a motor home for 60,000 miles with the front wheels in the air(not everyone uses an a frame many use a dolly)
so the odometer doesn't measure the thousands of miles the rear axle, suspension etc have done
also the way that more of the cars weight is on the back axle than would be in normal use increases the forces on the cars chassis but most owners forget to mention this when selling their well below average towed car to a new unsuspecting owner
pepe you are correct that dollies and a frames are different bits of kit not sure why you point that out tbh its a given fact
i think youl find that dollies are not just for recovery use...see evidence and link below to goverment website
i spent many years working at a caravan repair center and there are many that use dollies rather than a frames ( the percentage of a frame users over dolly users is way greater but that doesnt mean they dont exist and my reply is in relation to dolly users) the title of this thread is about towing a car behind a mh the op doesnt stipulate an aframe or a dolly so i was just putting my slant on the issue
many use a frames over dollies just down to the fact that a frames are cheaper
as for the legality of a frames and dollies are both not classed the same look at goverment factsheet
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf
"However, if “dollies” are used for the transportation of perfectly functioning vehicles they will need to fitted with an operational braking system."........perfectly functioning doesnt relate to recovery only now does it?
The "Trailer and Towing Advisory Service" says this:.
"A towing dolly may be equipped with brakes, but only on it's own wheels, the other axle of the vehicle mounted on it will not have operable brakes - so by definition it is not a braked trailer - and should never exceed either 750 kg, or ½ the weight of the towing vehicle, or the towing vehicle manufacturers stated unbraked towing capacity, whichever is least.
Legislation does allow for the recovery of a vehicle, from a position where it constitutes a hazard, to a safe-haven. However, to proceed beyond the first safe-haven becomes transport, as opposed to recovery. In this instance a car transporter trailer is required, whereby the entire vehicle is carried upon the trailer (or towed vehicle) the trailers axle(s) being equipped with the requisite brakes."
"There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked ‘A’ frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different.Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere
Note that there is a very specific difference between recovery and transportation. Recovery is the removal of a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. It does not include removing a rotor arm (for instance) and travelling the length and breadth of the country.The police are well aware of the difference due to the regulations covering Tachographs and Operators Licences. Recovery vehicles are exempt."
"An A-frame or recovery dolly can only be used legally to recover a vehicle which has broken down.
If you tow a car that hasn't broken down using an A-frame or dolly then the law treats the combination as a trailer which must meet the appropriate braking and lighting rules.
Trailers below 750kg don't have to be fitted with braking systems, but if a braking system is fitted to a trailer of any weight – as is clearly the case for a car – then thebraking system must operate correctly. This is not possible for normal systems fitted to cars, particularly the brake servo, which would not be working unless the engine was running.
Trailer regulations also require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system to ensure that the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates while the trailer is in motion or, in the case of trailers, up to a maximum mass of 1,500kg that the drawbar is prevented from touching the ground and the trailer has some residual steering."
So if brakes are fitted,they need to be operational?..yes?l(..and up to a given/specific standard),so how are the brakes on the rear wheels of a car that's being dragged on a dolly being operated then?...they're not are they...
That's better i knew if i cast a wide enough net i'd get a bite or two, & liven up what is normally an oh so boring post. Remember to keep your comments general and not personal or webby will lock the post quicker than a rat up a drain pipe.So at the moment we have
Those that don't give a damb, because i worked bloody hard for what i've got & i'll not be told what to do. ( my sorta guy believe it or not )
Those that are doing their bit by using small car for the mundane stuff & only using 4x4 as & when needed
Those that think hey live & let live he has a point
Those that have read this & thought oh s**t i'm keeping out of this
The "Trailer and Towing Advisory Service" says this:.
"A towing dolly may be equipped with brakes, but only on it's own wheels, the other axle of the vehicle mounted on it will not have operable brakes - so by definition it is not a braked trailer - and should never exceed either 750 kg, or ½ the weight of the towing vehicle, or the towing vehicle manufacturers stated unbraked towing capacity, whichever is least.
Legislation does allow for the recovery of a vehicle, from a position where it constitutes a hazard, to a safe-haven. However, to proceed beyond the first safe-haven becomes transport, as opposed to recovery. In this instance a car transporter trailer is required, whereby the entire vehicle is carried upon the trailer (or towed vehicle) the trailers axle(s) being equipped with the requisite brakes."
"There are strict regulations on braked trailers and, whilst a braked ‘A’ frame attached to a towed car constitutes a braked trailer, it is not legal for transportation as it cannot comply with EC71/320. With car dollies, the situation is somewhat different.Under regulation 83 of the Road Vehicles (construction & Use) Regulations 1986 (SI.1986/1078) Amending Regulations, a car dolly, with a car in place, will be considered as two trailers. This is legal for recovery but, under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 (Schedule 6) the combination is limited to 40 mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 20 mph elsewhere
Note that there is a very specific difference between recovery and transportation. Recovery is the removal of a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. It does not include removing a rotor arm (for instance) and travelling the length and breadth of the country.The police are well aware of the difference due to the regulations covering Tachographs and Operators Licences. Recovery vehicles are exempt."
"An A-frame or recovery dolly can only be used legally to recover a vehicle which has broken down.
If you tow a car that hasn't broken down using an A-frame or dolly then the law treats the combination as a trailer which must meet the appropriate braking and lighting rules.
Trailers below 750kg don't have to be fitted with braking systems, but if a braking system is fitted to a trailer of any weight – as is clearly the case for a car – then thebraking system must operate correctly. This is not possible for normal systems fitted to cars, particularly the brake servo, which would not be working unless the engine was running.
Trailer regulations also require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system to ensure that the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates while the trailer is in motion or, in the case of trailers, up to a maximum mass of 1,500kg that the drawbar is prevented from touching the ground and the trailer has some residual steering."
So if brakes are fitted,they need to be operational?..yes?l(..and up to a given/specific standard),so how are the brakes on the rear wheels of a car that's being dragged on a dolly being operated then?...they're not are they...
Post last edited on 06/09/2013 12:59:32
when you tow on a dolly you get a braking system fitted to the car the servo is operated by the towing vehical
they have been around for years
here is the first one that came up on google
..and not one of those mentions anything about supplying or the need for, additional assisted braking for the towed vehicle.
Silverwood..Yeah, a bit of lively discussion does make a nice change from some of the "Aldi camping chair bargain" type threads
I'm pretty much a live'n'let live type o' chap..
...but I'm sure we've all seen,"home made" dollies, tow bars, bumpers,rear scooter racks etc...but just because we've them or know someone who uses one, doesn't always make them legal or safe.(..and in many cases even the decent bits of kit are overloading the vehicle/axle )..
Personally, if the likes of the Trailer & Towing Advisory Service and the AA, Et al say that dollies are for recovery only, then that's good enough for me...
We've just returned from Le Tréport, France
While we were there, two lots of British Motorhomers came up and asked if we knew of a Vet near Calais so we were able to give them a couple of addresses
They saw our car trailer and told us they had been in Germany and seen quite a few Motorhomes with A Frames being pulled over by the Police.
So, it sounds as though Germany does not like A Frames
Quote: Originally posted by Jack+Jon on 06/9/2013
It always amuses me the way cost is cited. Anybody who can afford a £60k m/h & the lifestyle to go with can afford to stay on campsites if they want to so why boast about how they 'save money' by not paying out for campsites?
I dont know about anyone else but cost isnt the issue for us ,we just dislike campsite ( well most of the them) and the type of people they attract ( on the whole)
whats up with some people whats it matter if you have a large 4x4 or a mini. tow a caravan or a small car. everyone has their own reasons for doing so. I tow a smart car on an a-frame and heres why, years ago I used to have a caravan, had some great holidays in it, then we bought a vw camper then moved up to the present motorhome, we used to stay on sites for a couple of days then move on, but when visiting towns it started to get harder to find parking spots, so this year I decided to have a towbar fitted and bought a smart cabrio, so now I have the choice to take the car or not. if away for more than two nights I take the car, this is fitted with a brake buddy systym that keeps the vaccum in the cars servo. a few a-frames use a cable brake so if the car breaks free the handbrake is pulled on, as for future laws this will probably be about the tow car braking systym, as for the german police they are probably after boosting their funds by hopeing that the passenger would not be able to drive the tow car, and yes my insurance has been informed about the a-frame ( otherwise it would void my cover due to it being a modification) and they replied that whilst being towed it is covered by third party only but reverts to fully comp when off tow.
Amazing family weekend with old steam engines, classic car displays, market stalls, and full catering and bar. And camping on site - Save £25 by booking in advance.
Topic: cars towed by mh.
