What a nightmare!
We travelled to a Norfolk campsite towing our small trailer containing the tent and accessories with our beloved 2003 Rover 45 1.8 CVT auto which we have owned for the past six years.
Pulling onto the site, and pitching the tent. I needed to move the car which I did. It started no problem and then I switched it off.
When I tried starting again, a clicking noise emanated from the engine but no start. Calling the AA it was discovered that the timing belt and twin cams remain static whilst the crank pulley turns. The belt is frayed but not broken. I arranged for recovery to home at the end of our stay even though we could go nowhere.
My dilemma is what to do with the car. I'm told it is possible that the K series engine did not suffer damage as it was not running above idle, I may get away with a new belt...but then again I could be faced with bent valves. all costing money. The car itself is a rare version with just 14 remaining in use here in the UK.
Would I be throwing good money after bad?
------------- Knowledge is recognising that a tomato is a fruit: experience is not putting it in a fruit salad.
If you had a clicking noise and car not starting this is usually due to low battery voltage and it is the starter solenoid making the clicking noise. If the cam belt is not broken there should be no valve damage. How did AA diagnose camshaft not turning, did they remove the belt cover as sounds a bit suspect to me as even a belt starting to fray on edges and not broken would still drive camshaft.. I would first check battery voltage and charge up. If car then starts put a voltmeter on battery terminals. If voltage is not showing 14.2 to 14.3 volts then alternator is duff.Cambelt fraying needs priority changing.
The starter motor engages teeth on the flywheel if the crank pulley is turning then perhaps one of the gears is slipping on the belt. Was the belt moving?
Some older engines didn't have cam belt covers but pretty certain the K series has.
Worth removing the cover and seeing what's going on. A mechanic could probably do it quite cheaply and advise you where to go from there.
Some engines are non interference so if a cambelt breaks there's no valve damage.
If its just a starter issue then get the belt changed as it's frayed.
------------- DS-There's more to life than football!!!
I’m not a mechanic. However, this sort of question crops up regularly in the motoring section of The Telegraph on a Saturday: classic car, rare car, to repair or not, what might be the fault.
One of the people with huge experience who writes there is ‘Honest John’, who has his own website.
I’m sure you won’t rush into doing anything.
Quote: Originally posted by birdman101 on 22/9/2022
If you had a clicking noise and car not starting this is usually due to low battery voltage and it is the starter solenoid making the clicking noise. If the cam belt is not broken there should be no valve damage. How did AA diagnose camshaft not turning, did they remove the belt cover as sounds a bit suspect to me as even a belt starting to fray on edges and not broken would still drive camshaft.. I would first check battery voltage and charge up. If car then starts put a voltmeter on battery terminals. If voltage is not showing 14.2 to 14.3 volts then alternator is duff.Cambelt fraying needs priority changing.
The battery was fully charged and alternator charging, connecting the AA booster pack confirmed all was well in that department. The clicking sound was most likely the belt, having jumped, putting the timing out allowing the pistons on the 'interference engine' to make contact with the valves.
The belt inspection cover was removed and I personally observed the engine cranking on the key(alternator and water pump belts turning) whilst the cambelt did not move.
The lower pully is obviously fraying the now static belt as we turned it on the starter.
It was replaced less than 6k miles ago.
------------- Knowledge is recognising that a tomato is a fruit: experience is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Did the AA try and turn the camshafts by hand with the belt removed?
It could be a camshaft has snapped. Try it, then valve cover off to check that problem.
Regardless you are now into whether its worth saving a 20 year old car and spending money you will never get back as a Rover 45 will never be a £250k rare classic.
What is the alternative, ?? How much to spend on a replacement..
DO you like the car. how well maitained is it ..
Good luck. .we have a car on ramps that my hubby will get around to fixing one day.....because it is too good to scrap and the seats are more comfortable than our new BMW wagon....
Quote: Originally posted by ice-pop on 24/9/2022
What is the alternative, ?? How much to spend on a replacement..
DO you like the car. how well maitained is it ..
The Rover is low mileage and well maintained,
My first thoughts are to scrap it and get another cheapie, however looking around, prices have gone silly. Replacement is now double my budget for an even older car needing work, I'm guessing worse case scenario, repair would cost about the same.
I have a bus pass....but there are no buses here.
------------- Knowledge is recognising that a tomato is a fruit: experience is not putting it in a fruit salad.
My opinion would be to repair it unless it is going to be ridiculously expensive. It's not always about money, especially with older vehicles, it is often about how much you like the vehicle. I run older vehicles and have often spent far more on them than was "sensible". If you like the car and you know it, surely it is better to fix it than to buy another "cheapie" that you don't know. You could easily be buying a whole heap of trouble.
We are having to make the same decision with our caravan. It needs some repairs that will almost certainly cost far more than the caravan is "worth", but once repaired it will probably be far better than any replacement we could afford. We really like the caravan as it suits our needs perfectly, so we will almost certainly go for repair.
You can get a refurbished 1.8 K series cylinder head with camshafts and valves assembled for around £500 and a head gasket, cambelt and head bolts (DO NOT re-use the old bolts) will cost around £100 or you can get a whole engine, not refurbed for about £500-£800. Changing a cylinder head is not difficult if you are at all competent and know how to use a torque wrench and should take a couple of hours. A garage will usually charge around £150-£200 labour for the job. A whole engine swap is still fairly straight forwards but requires an engine hoist and a few other specialist tools. It can be done in a day and a garage will charge around £800 to do the swap.
Quote: Originally posted by starcraft on 24/9/2022
Quote: Originally posted by ice-pop on 24/9/2022
What is the alternative, ?? How much to spend on a replacement..
DO you like the car. how well maitained is it ..
The Rover is low mileage and well maintained,
My first thoughts are to scrap it and get another cheapie, however looking around, prices have gone silly. Replacement is now double my budget for an even older car needing work, I'm guessing worse case scenario, repair would cost about the same.
I have a bus pass....but there are no buses here.
Cars are cash cows there is no doubt about it, keeping a car on the road these days and it in tip top condition costs an arm and a leg.
We recently had a problem with the Ad Blue system on our car and was quoted £1100 from Citroen for a 16L plastic tank with an integrated unserviceable pump and sensor ! ( completely obscene ) Luckily in a way it turned out to be something else .
Don’t take me wrong but you say the car is well maintained yet the cam belt is frayed ? Whatever you do don’t put off a cam belt change.
I would say get some quotes from reputable people and see what quotes they come back with.
We fitted a new belt today and she started first time, ran for a while but once stopped and restarted she ran rough. Attempted to start again but alas no go.
The old belt has an area where two inches of teeth are stripped, the rest is as good as new.
I suspect there is a more involved problem causing the belt to skip out of time which will be far too expensive for my pocket.
I'll advertise as spares or repair and recoup what I can.
------------- Knowledge is recognising that a tomato is a fruit: experience is not putting it in a fruit salad.
Quote: Originally posted by starcraft on 24/9/2022
We fitted a new belt today and she started first time, ran for a while but once stopped and restarted she ran rough. Attempted to start again but alas no go.
The old belt has an area where two inches of teeth are stripped, the rest is as good as new.
I suspect there is a more involved problem causing the belt to skip out of time which will be far too expensive for my pocket.
I'll advertise as spares or repair and recoup what I can.
To strip teeth something has 'locked' for some reason, while the rest of it has carried on spinning (to strip the teeth). If the car is generally good, maybe look at a re-con engine straight swap. Because as others have said; buying another low-budget vehicle never usually ends well. As someone else has usually had the best years out of it.
Someone mentioned an engine hoist. I recall not being able to afford one to swap a 2 litre Cortina engine. So working for the gas board - laying pipes, at the time, i though id make one. How hard could it be! I knocked one up in half an hour, and it looked impressive. However, on raising the old block, the pipe threads gave way, and the engine crashed back down into the bay, the 'legs' damaging the cars wings. Had to hire the real thing to get it out. You live and learn!
Quote: Originally posted by 664DaveS on 24/9/2022
Quite often a cam kit comes with a belt tensioner and on some makes a water pump. On my last Saab I had it done by an independent for about £350.
That much?...That's what I paid for the Rover.
I've had my money's worth from her over the years. Just tyres and a battery to pass the mot constantly without advisories, and I'll get cash for scrap. Just a shame to see her go.
On the bright side my friend has loaned me a newer Nissan Cube to use for the moment with the option to buy for basically pennies if I like it. It has a cam chain so I'm tempted.
------------- Knowledge is recognising that a tomato is a fruit: experience is not putting it in a fruit salad.
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Topic: Car woes
via mobile 22/9/2022 at 6:03pm
