i might of misread but its only 85kgs this about 90% i thought you could legally tow up to 100% if experianced at towing put all heavy items in car and light stuff in van weigh items and load accordingly
Post last edited on 03/10/2005 14:25:35
Post last edited on 03/10/2005 14:31:17
The 85% guideline refers to the MTPLM of the trailer in relation to the kerbweight of the car. The problem here is the low maximum towing weight given by the car manufacturers.
------------- Caz
If you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, just keep going till you go round the bend.
> The problem here is the low maximum towing weight given by the car manufacturers. <
That is not the problem in itself. The reason for the weights given are the norms. One of the norms is that with trailer the specific type of car must be able to accelarate from standstill on a slope of a 12%, and must be able to do so 5 consecutive times, for safety reasons.
This is tested and apparently the maximum weight for this particular car with which it could do so, also given the specific type of engine in it, is 1300 kgs.
I checked the Dutch towcar site and it actually fits in. I tried your car with the weakest diesel engine and a comparable caravan laden 1375 kgs (1385 was not there) and it cannot make 12% from standstill, not at sea level, let alone at 1500 mtrs altitude.
It will do a 11.5% gradient at sealevel, but at 1500 mtrs altitude it will do less i.e. 10.7% from standstill. When driving about 20 kms/h of course it will do much better, over 25% in first gear.
By itself these numbers are sufficient for most destinations and adequate driving in hilly/mountainlike areas, providen that more or less normal roads are chosen. With these figures I can actually easily reach my destination in the Pyrenees, Vercors or Auvergne.
The point remains that the EC-norms now is 12% from standstill, 5 consecutive times for safety reasons, hence the relatively low figures from manufacturers.
When choosing a new car this implies that one should not only pick the type of car, but also look at the engine one chooses and maybe spend a few hundred pounds more for a bit stronger engine. The engine in question actually somtimes makes a big difference in the figures.
Example: the Citroen C3 actually ranges from 1100 kgs up to 1500 kgs max towing weight depending on the engine chosen.
Quote: Originally posted by bordercaz on 03/10/2005
Unfortunately I don't think that carrying less weight will make this combination legal - as I understand it, the law says that the max towing weight for the car must be greater than the max weight of the trailer. So even if you put nothing in the van, this car cannot legally tow it.
Most cars seem to have max tow limits heavier than the kerbweight but some manufacturers do seem to be a bit stingy, most notably Renault & Vauxhall.
If you want to stick with an MPV, how about a Ford Galaxy?
I think you are slightly wide of the mark here.
The max towing limit for the car is exactly that. So as long as you don't ACTUALLY exceed that you will be within the confines of the law. Whether or not that would be a stable combination would remain to be seen.
Quote: Originally posted by bordercaz on 03/10/2005
Quote: Originally posted by johnjory on 03/10/2005
Towing limits are based on a figure called the "Gross Train Weight".
This means the total weight of the vehicle and caravan that will pull away with ease on a 12% incline.
Admittedly, you are stuck with the 1300kg towing specification, But your vans fully laden weight is only 85kg over the 1300.
Before I decided to replace one or the other, I would could load up everything in a representative way, find my local weighbridge and have everything weighed. Then I would know exactly how close or otherwise to the limit I really was and make my decision on that basis.
John Jory
The problem is though that if stopped by the Police then it is the MTPLM on the plate and the car's manufacturer's weights that are important, not how much it actually weighs.
But if the trailer does not weight as much as the MTPLM, and does not exceed the cars towing limit, where is the offence for the police to prosecute.
You have my sympathies. When I bought the Aventura 315 I also assumed that there would be no problem for my 1.8 litre petrol Mondeo (1996) . There wasn't but only just - Kerb Weight of Mondeo 1269kg and MTPLM (loaded weight) of caravan 1264kg. Phew. The Mondeo was getting tired anyway (167000 miles), so I've bought a C-max 2 litre.
As to your solution - bordercaz seems to have some good advice - and if you can get the loaded Pageant to weigh 1300kg then you are within the manufacturer's recommendation.
But will the car pull the van? Although the bottom line is about weight, surely the underpinning fault is the power and therefore the engine size. If it was a 3 litre engine for example and weighed 1545kg I suspect the manufacturer's towing weight would be more than 1300kg. What is the engine size?
Lots of advice mingled with a bit of hearsay me thinks. No one mentioned the importance of noseweight yet !
As the driver you are TOTALLY responsible for the safety of your vehicle and whatever you are towing. Ignorance is no defence so take a look around the link below before the police stop you and spoil your holiday.
......No one mentioned the importance of noseweight yet !.....
I agree, to the point that I consider that noseweight is even more important than the mass of your van.
The noseweight gives the BALANCE to your rig. The balance is where most of your stability comes from.
In addition to max towing weight, vehicle manufacturers also specify "Maximum Drawbar Loading". In plain English, that means the 'noseweight' that must not ne exceeded.
Most cars have a Max Drawbar Loading specified between 50Kg and 75Kg. For most 4x4's, this figure is typically between 75Kg and 100Kg.
The Caravan Club and Camping & Caravanning Club websites give noseweight figures of between 4% and 7% of the van weight. Noseweight can easily be adjusted by moving the things you put in the van fore and aft till the desired noseweight is attained. You can buy noseweight measurers. But your bathroom scales and a piece of wood under the coupling head will do the job just as well.
Now, 4% of 1300 is 52Kg and 7% of 1300 is 91Kg.
Important to check the Max Drawbar loading permitted for your vehicle.
I think some of you are missing the point about manufacturers max towing weights
The max braked towing weight is derived from the the max train weight - the max vehicle gross weight.
Max train weight is the max the car can drag up a 12% (or 1 in 7 ) slope 5 times in quick succession before either the engine over heats or the clutch / torque convertor gives up.
Max vehicle gross weight, is the vehicle loaded up, so that the axles are carrying their max design weight. This may be determined by tyres, body strength, brake design. This weight also includes the nose weight of the trailer, fuel, occupants, luggage, roof load
So a car with a gross train of 3200kg and a max weight of 2000kg can legally tow a 1200kg weight (this could be a van/twin wheel trailer/single wheel trailer) If there is a model in the same range/same engine but with a max weight of 1900kg, then the tow maximum will be 1300kg (see the 2.0 diesel vectra B hatch and estate models)
Legally if your car has a manufacturers limit of 1200kg, and you have a van that is 1100kg laden, 1170kg with essential extras and maybe a small porch awning so that it weighs 1199kg (bear in mind that most council weighbridges are only 4-5% accurate at this point) you are legal, even if your hypothetical mtplm is 1345kg/1299kg/1249kg or whatever.
The notional advisory 85% guidance is to help us caravanners put together a stable platform (just like the 7% nose weight guidance), the legalities are straight forward.
Unfortunately some cars have a legal towing limit less than the 85% guidance, eg Renault Scenic, Diesel Vauxhalls inc Zafira, Vectra B. Some cars Passat and Mondeo for examplecan legally tow in excess of 85%.
The Camping and Caravanning Club magazine August edition carries an article on the Renault Scenic on page 50. They tested a 1.9 Turbo Diesel.
In the last paragraph they say, “Renault may state the Scenic can tow 1,300Kg. but this is with the driver only.The figure is reduced to 850Kgwhen you add passengers and luggage, making this car more suitable for pulling a trailer tent rather than your average, newish two berth caravan".
It seems Renault are being very cautious about the towing capabilities of their car.
Carr
Post last edited on 07/10/2005 07:44:24
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Topic: Help Please with my Towing mismatch
