I bought a brand new Sterling caravn which was collected in May. After 3 months we have what appears to be damp on the back wall of the caravan. I reported this to my dealer 5 weeks ago but Swift have been on 3 week factory shutdown. My dealer suggested straight away it should go back to the manuufacter to sort. I have just received letter from Swift saying that they can arrange for van to be worked on w/c 17/1/2011. This is another 4 months away which seems a long time to have to wait for something that is getting worse week by week. Can anyone suggest the best way to approach this I am trying to be rational but it will be 6 months from the time when I first reported incident as they will have the van for 4 weeks to sort problem.
I will call dealer tomorow and also Swift to try to get to the bottom of this but welcome people opinions on what is reasonable.
I must admit Fit for purpose did go through my mind but not sure if this would work. My last van had 60% damp picked up on the first years serrvice. Was repaired, More damp picked up on 2 years service. Repaired. I then sold the van as I was not happy with the dealer. NOW THIS. Hence I am asking where I stand.
Is it not the case that if a fault appears in the first six months then it is deemed to be faulty from the outset. I would speak to trading standards in the morning as they should be able to provide you with the correct legislation and terminology.
I second snowy on phoning trading standards first. They can then tell you what to say to the dealer. I do know that the dealer is the one you have a contract with not directly with the manufacturer but am not clear on whether if you are offered a repair whether you have to accept that or not.
Under the Sale of Goods Act your brand new caravan should be of satisfactory quality, sufficiently durable and free from any defects. It would seem from what you say that the dealer agrees that there is damp and that Swift have agreed to remedy this defect under their warranty. That warranty is a contract between you and Swift -nothing to do with the dealer. You have a separate contract with the dealer to which the Sale of Goods Act applies.
More than four weeks have elapsed since your purchase, but less than six moths, so that now your remedy is to have a replacement van or a repair under the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. If the dealer wishes to avoid any liability to replace than the onus is on it to prove that you caused the problem. Guess that would be impossible in the case of a caravan so the dealer would have a real problem avoiding its obligations to you under the law.
Now we come to the practical issues. I reckon that you have three choices.
Demand a replacement immediately. Tell the dealer that it is in breach of its obligations under the Sale of Goods Act and that you do not wish to use the warranty contract supplied by Swift. The dealer can take the van back and then the dealer can get the van remedied under that warranty and then sell it. So dealer does not loose out. Dealer may not see it that simplisticly!!
Demand that Swift move everyone back and put you at the top of the queue. There is always a queue in workshops. It seems that Swift have accepted their obligations and simply put you in the queue. Say to the dealer and Swift that if they will not do that you want to exercise your right to have a replacement. Hopefully that will focus the mind of the dealer to pressure Swift to deal with your van. Give them a deadline, say a week, to agree a new date for the work to be done and say that if they cannot give a specific earlier date by then then you want the replacement.
You can accept the queue and that you will not be going anywhere in your van until into next year
Remember that, generally, once you have made your choice you are stuck with it. Once they start the work, you can’t then say that you have changed your mind and want a new van.
I appreciate that its a hassle waiting for jobs to be done, but that is often life and we have to accept it.
Hope it all works out for you
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
I think people thinking of buying from a dealer in order to get the "security" of a warranty should read this post and see how they might be treated if something goes wrong.
No caravan should ever need a warranty if it were built to a quality standard.
A warranty should not affect your statutory rights, but dealers and manufacturers quickly push you down the warranty route rather than give you a replacement van or your money back for it not being fit for purpose.
I expect Phil will be along in a bit to tell you what you can do, how the law affects you and how to sue in court &etc. <EDIT> Seems he beat me to it! </EDIT>
But caravanning is not about spending all your spare time chasing lawyers, the CAB, and lengthy sessions in court - Caravanning is about the freedom to spend your hard earned free time enjoying the comfort of your caravan in the place of your choice.
To the OP, sorry to hear of your problems, hope you do manage to get it sorted
------------- Caravanning is a way of getting a cheap holiday out of an expensive hobby
Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 06/9/2010
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Gadgetman,</SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> <P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Under the Sale of Goods Act your brand new caravan should be of satisfactory quality, sufficiently durable and free from any defects. It would seem from what you say that the dealer agrees that there is damp and that Swift have agreed to remedy this defect under their warranty. That warranty is a contract between you and Swift -nothing to do with the dealer. You have a separate contract with the dealer to which the Sale of Goods Act applies. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">More than four weeks have elapsed since your purchase, but less than six moths, so that now your remedy is to have a replacement van or a repair under the </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN>Sale</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN> and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> If the dealer wishes to avoid any liability to replace than the onus is on it to prove that you caused the problem. Guess that would be impossible in the case of a caravan so the dealer would have a real problem avoiding its obligations to you under the law. <o:p></o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Now we come to the practical issues. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> I reckon that y</SPAN>ou have three choices. <o:p></o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN><OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0cm" type=1><LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Demand a replacement immediately. Tell the dealer that it is in breach of its obligations under the Sale of Goods Act and that you do not wish to use the warranty contract supplied by Swift. The dealer can take the van back and then the dealer can get the van remedied under that warranty and then sell it. So dealer does not loose out. Dealer may not see it that simplisticly!!<o:p></o:p></SPAN><LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Demand that Swift move everyone back and put you at the top of the queue. There is always a queue in workshops. It seems that Swift have accepted their obligations and simply put you in the queue. Say to the dealer and Swift that if they will not do that you want to exercise your right to have a replacement. Hopefully that will focus the mind of the dealer to pressure Swift to deal with your van. Give them a deadline, say a week, to agree a new date for the work to be done and say that if they cannot give a specific earlier date by then then you want the replacement.<o:p></o:p></SPAN><LI style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">You can accept the queue and that you will not be going anywhere in your van until into next year <o:p></o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Remember that, generally, once you have made your choice you are stuck with it. Once they start the work, you can’t then say that you have changed your mind and want a new van.</SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> <P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I appreciate that its a hassle waiting for jobs to be done, but that is often life and we have to accept it.</SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> <P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hope it all works out for you</SPAN><P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> <P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Phil<o:p></o:p></SPAN>
I am very surprised at you offering such obvious bad advice. Although Swift may undetake the warranty work, there is not contract between Swift and the custoerm to undertake the work. Under SOGA the warranty is between the customer and the dealer and not the customer and the manufacturer. This is elementary and soething i thought you would be aware of being in the legal profession.
I agree that the customer has the right to reject the caravan as it is seems that the problem was there from before purchase and they should initiate the rejection process as soon as possible. I suggest that this is the best course of action for the customer as the delay to fix it is unreasonable.
Take your point Mr RC, but if anything does go wrong, and hopefully that's a minority of cases, I think its better to have the Sale of Goods Act, warranties etc on your side than nothing at all if you buy privately. I gave the OP three choices. If it had been a private deal, just the one choice...lump it!
Quite often the difficulty that people find themselves in is, IMO, down to the fact that they do not know their actual rights and simply go along with whatever they told. I have a hope that through message boards like this the knowledge of the consumer will be increased and that soon dealers, shop owners, manufacturers, et al, will give greater focus to dealing with problems as the law requires....or better still, ensure that there are no problems in the first place. Wouldn't it have been nice if, in the case of the OP, the dealer had said..."sorry about this, you have three choices.......what would you like? We can dream......
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
I am very surprised at you offering such obvious bad advice. Although Swift may undetake the warranty work, there is not contract between Swift and the custoerm to undertake the work. Under SOGA the warranty is between the customer and the dealer and not the customer and the manufacturer. This is elementary and soething i thought you would be aware of being in the legal profession.
Wrong kid. Under the Sale of Goods Act (SOGA) your contract is with the dealer, as I said in my post. However, when you buy a van, or anything that comes with a separate guarantee/warranty and you have two contracts, one with the seller and the other with the manufacturer. The store guarantee and the manufacturer's warranty are mutually exclusive and thus separate contracts.
Never filled out a guarantee form and sent it off to the manufacturer to register your purchase in case anything goes wrong?
Read the Swift Warranty and you will see that it is clearly expressed to be between that Manufacturer and the purchaser of the van. So not "obviously bad advice!!!"
The Swift warranty indicates that your first port of call should be with the dealer. Thats a sensible procedural arrangement so that the dealer can have a look at the van and report the defect to the manufacturer. The manufacturer then either authorises the dealer to do the work and contracts with the dealer to pay it for that work, or gets the van delivered to the manufacturers' workshop for it to do the work.
You'll have to get up much earlier in the morning to catch me out
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 06/9/2010
Take your point Mr RC, but if anything does go wrong, and hopefully that's a minority of cases, I think its better to have the Sale of Goods Act, warranties etc on your side than nothing at all if you buy privately. I gave the OP three choices. If it had been a private deal, just the one choice...lump it!
Quite often the difficulty that people find themselves in is, IMO, down to the fact that they do not know their actual rights and simply go along with whatever they told. I have a hope that through message boards like this the knowledge of the consumer will be increased and that soon dealers, shop owners, manufacturers, et al, will give greater focus to dealing with problems as the law requires....or better still, ensure that there are no problems in the first place. Wouldn't it have been nice if, in the case of the OP, the dealer had said..."sorry about this, you have three choices.......what would you like? We can dream......
Phil
The Sale of Good Act covers 6 years of which the first - I thought year, but you say - 6 months the dealer has to prove the the caravan is fit for purpose.
With a warranty you have to, in many cases, prove to the dealer that the caravan is not fit for purpose from day one (i.e. the dealer has control)
Dealers and manufacturers may say that the warranty is in addition to your stat rights but that warranty rarely offers any addition to your stat rights but saves the dealer and ultimately the manufacture loosing money by having to replace a caravan unfit for purpose or refunding money.
Dealers will very often only resort to observing the Sale of Goods Act when the customer threatens legal action.
At the moment having a warranty and the Sale of Goods Act is like having 2 insurance covers on the same item
------------- Caravanning is a way of getting a cheap holiday out of an expensive hobby
Phil, I totally disagree with you and it now becomes very obvious that your knowlege of SOGA is somewhat limited. Please point out to me in the SOGA` where it states that the contract is between the customer and the manufacturer.
However if you wish to maintain your viewpoint which is incorrect then so be it, but don't pass it on to other people who may think you are correct.
You are right on the six years thing, but, legally, its not as straightforward as "The Sale of Good Act covers 6 years". The way the law operates is that if there is a breach of a simple contract you have a period of six years to bring an action for damages. That's known as the "limitation Period". The contract is made on the day you buy and so your six years runs from that date. That contract includes all the rights under the Sale of Goods Act if you buy as a consumer. So, if any of those SOGA conditions is breached on the day you contracted you have six years to bring an action. So its not the SOGA that brings i nthe six year issue. There is a longer period (12 years) under the Limitation Act 1980 if the contract is under seal. Your contract in a shop/with a dealer is a simple contract.
The six months issue is a "burden of proof" matter. The law says that if you buy as a consumer (not under a private deal) the law assums that defects in goods appearing in the first six months are the dealers fault and the dealer has the burden of proof to show that some defect is not his fault. After that fist six months period the buyer has the problem of prooving that a defect is down to the dealer. So always get your claim in in six months...don't delay.
Yes I suppose it may be looked at as two insurance covers..but that's better than no cover.
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
"Please point out to me in the SOGA` where it states that the contract is between the customer and the manufacturer. "
The manufacturers warranty is nothing to do with the Sale of Goods Act. The SOGA covers your relationship with the seller only. The manufacturer, over and above that SOGA contract, and as a separate transaction, provides a separate contract of warranty if you buy their caravan giving you additional rights over and above your SOGA rights against the seller. You have two contracts as I said. That distinction needs to be appreciated.
"However if you wish to maintain your viewpoint which is incorrect then so be it, but don't pass it on to other people who may think you are correct. "
Boots on the other foot surfero.....with respect, sir, I am correct
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
PS if it helps to clarify, Mr RC made a good point in that sellers/manufacturers indicate that a manufacturers warranty is "in addition" to your statutroy rights. Those statutory rights being SOGA. The warranty another contract
Phil
Post last edited on 06/09/2010 11:45:23
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
Phil obviously you haven't a clue what you are on about and perhaps desperately need a course on law to bring you up to date.
If you are content to dish out incorrect advice that is your perogative and I will let you carry on with your beliefs.
The OP can decide which course of action they want to follow.
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Topic: Warranty query on new caravan.
