Consider this scenario. You install an extra socket in your kitchen for your washing machine, but inadvertently cross connect the live and neutral. You don't bother to test, plug the machine in and it works. That means everything is fine or so you think.
A while later the machine breaks down, so you call in a washing machine engineer. He does what all washing machine engineers do, and only switches off the switch on the socket and does not remove the plug.
He puts his hand in side and receives a bad shock, so bad that he is so nervous he cannot work again. He hires a solicitor and sues you.
You have been negligent because you failed to have your installation tested and carried out the installation without sufficient knowledge. You could argue that the engineer should have removed the plug, but in practice, they do only switch off the switch, assuming that will isolate the supply, as it would in a healthy installation. Testing would have revealed this danger.
A similar story could be concocted for a caravan, but the tale above is actually a true story and the householder lost the case. Whilst it is true that testing is not a legal requirement, it is a very wise precaution.
The electrical installation on a caravan site, and in a caravan is covered by BS7671 which is the new name for the old IEE Wiring Regulations. They are covered as "special locations" due to their greater risk than a standard building. The owner of the electrical installation (the site owner) has a responsibilty for the safety of everything plugged into it and thus could require to see current test certificates for caravans and their mains leads before allowing them to be plugged in. Of course they do have to balance this risk against losing a lot of customers.
"He does what all washing machine engineers do, and only switches off the switch on the socket and does not remove the plug"
Any person working on electrical apparatus is required under the Electricity at work act to isolate and prove dead unless trained to work on live equipment.
Why would an engineer not remove the plug,what would happen if the houeholder inadvertantly switched it back on by mistake?
I would like to see the case history of the one quoted as at very least there would have been a case of contributory negligence on the part of the engineer.
Under part P of the building regs you would be breaking the law if you installed an extra socket in your kitchen.
BS7671 dates back to 2001 it's only since the 17th edition came in that people have been suggesting that a caravan is required to be tested,a rumour put about IMHO by recently qualified electricians etc who see it as a profitable scource of revenue.
Saxo1
Only just joined this forum and finding this thread interesting
With regard to some of the points raised
The electrical inspection and testing of caravans would appear to be an initiative being introduced by the NCC (National Caravan Council) . Whilst it is a good idea, because of the type of wiring / cable used in caravans they will always be non compliant with BS7671:2008 and all previous editions of the regs, also as a periodic inspection report contains results of tests on the supply to the caravan, these will effect the overall report as each site will have different supply characteristics that would effect the overall test results
The requirement for In Service Inspection And Testing of Electrical Equipment also misnamed PAT Testing was introduced in The Electricity At Work Act 1989 and covers all fixed and portable electrical equipment in the workplace there is no legal requirement for this to be carried out as long as adequate maintenance is carried out and records are kept
Any additional electrical point added to a caravan should be tested and as a minimum a minor works certificate issued
Part P is a farce brought about by an MP’s daughter getting electrocuted it was introduced to make domestic installations safer yet B&Q still sell enough kit to do a major DIY rewire
BS7671:1992 was the first edition of the 16th edition IEE Regs issued in 1992 not 2001
Consider this scenario. You install an extra socket in your kitchen for your washing machine, but inadvertently cross connect the live and neutral. You don't bother to test, plug the machine in and it works. That means everything is fine or so you think.
A while later the machine breaks down, so you call in a washing machine engineer. He does what all washing machine engineers do, and only switches off the switch on the socket and does not remove the plug.
He puts his hand in side and receives a bad shock, so bad that he is so nervous he cannot work again. He hires a solicitor and sues you.
You have been negligent because you failed to have your installation tested and carried out the installation without sufficient knowledge. You could argue that the engineer should have removed the plug, but in practice, they do only switch off the switch, assuming that will isolate the supply, as it would in a healthy installation. Testing would have revealed this danger.
A similar story could be concocted for a caravan, but the tale above is actually a true story and the householder lost the case. Whilst it is true that testing is not a legal requirement, it is a very wise precaution.
The electrical installation on a caravan site, and in a caravan is covered by BS7671 which is the new name for the old IEE Wiring Regulations. They are covered as "special locations" due to their greater risk than a standard building. The owner of the electrical installation (the site owner) has a responsibilty for the safety of everything plugged into it and thus could require to see current test certificates for caravans and their mains leads before allowing them to be plugged in. Of course they do have to balance this risk against losing a lot of customers.
PAT testing would have found nothing wrong with the washing machine because the fault was with the socket and not the machine. The washing machine is negligent because he should have unplugged the washing machine and then used a meter to ensure it was dead. Your solicitor will have no difficulty getting this thrown out of court.
What is more, I very much doubt this is the first shock the washing machine engineer has had. As for him being too nervous to work again, what a load of tosh! The householder must have had a lousy solicitor, and the engineer another one of those who drives over a sleeping policeman and gets on the phone to his solicitor complaining "Ouch my neck!"
It is not impossible to get a shock from the negative side of the wiring which would still be connected if the washing machine were plugged in and turned off at the socket.
Your washing machine has used the old touch the wire to see if it is live trick. He is not the first to do it and won't be the last but the negligence is on his part.
However, if you don't know how to wire a socket and had crossed the brown and green/yellow wires this would have been a different story.
This thread has nothing to do with diy amateur household electrics but to do with testing the electrics on a caravan.
The amateur household electrics scenario can occur for those travelling to european caravan sites, how many actually check that the polarity (live and neutral) is correct to their caravan on site, it is very easy fall into this trap with the european "Shuko" plug which will plug into the piller socket either way round. This is why newer caravans tend to use double pole switches to avoid fittings and appliances remaining live with only the neutral switched off. With regard to the washing machine scenario there was obviously no RCD or a faultly RCD,
I would like to bet that not many people check that the RCD on their van trips on the test button when they first hook up on site or have had it checked for the correct tripping times / fault current.
If a site required you to provide a test certificate I don't see any reason why they should not provide you with test results to show that the piller you are plugging into has a functional RCD that is tripping within the times and has adequate earthing as required by the regs.
I have seen many RCD's that have ceased to function because of lack of testing and have stuck in the on position. In this instance maybe a professional check of the electrical installation on your van may save a life!!, even your own!.
I think if you asked a site owner for his current test certificate he would show it to you. If he hasn't got one and the equipment is shot oyu shouldn't risk your life by taking a supply from it.
Part P covers domestic wiring and is mandatory under Building regs. It generally covers the high risk areas like kitchens and bathrooms. Part P does not specifically apply to caravans, although it does not take much imagination to see the link as you live in it and being high risk, has a high potential for electrical accidents and DIY wiring, the driving force for the introduction of Part P.
Part P applies also to electrical installations in commercial buildings containing a dwelling and in or on land associated with the buildings or parts of buildings including pond pumps in gardens and outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and green houses. Seeing as a caravan takes a power supply from the supply to the site owners house, it's not difficult to associate it with Part P. The word "Caravan" does not appear in Part P, so it's not specifically excluded.
Incidentally my story about the washing machine engineer is true. A fellow engineer was an expert witness on behalf of the engineer. As part of his report he spoke to many washing machine engineers and established that very few do remove the plug. Virtually all simply switch off. With a healthy installation, this would have been safe, bearing in mind that, with PME, the neutral and earth conductors are at the same potential.
I agree with your first point that most site owners would produce their current certificate if asked
With regard to Part P,
I suppose if you connect your caravan to your house supply as the caravan (outbuilding) is outside the equipotential zone then it may be classed as a notifiable installation, if you take this to the caravan site they would drive the local council building control up the wall
The driving force behind the introduction of Part P was this incident
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1473919/MPs-daughter-electrocuted-in-botched-fitted-kitchen.html
but I will agree that the standard of some DIY electrics needed some sort of control
For the purposes of Inspection and Testing a caravan site is classed as a Special Location ( BS7671 Guidance Note 3 & Note 7 ) , while a commercial installation is classed as a general installation. A Special Location requires that Inspection and Testing be carried out much more frequently (every year as opposed to every five)
If a caravan site was classed as a commercial installation then every time a pitch is occupied it would need a new periodic test if you work to the regs exactly
“Part P applies also to electrical installations in commercial buildings containing a dwelling and in or on land associated with the buildings”
This is an incomplete statement as it only applies where the commercial premise and a domestic dwelling share a common metered supply
As Part P only covers general installations a caravan is excluded as it is a Special Location
I have no doubt the washing machine engineer story is true, I have heard many of these stories and have investigated many similar faults myself. Even though this is a domestic location The Electricity At Work Act applies because the engineer was “at work” the fact that a proper isolation procedure was not carried out and the fact “other engineers do the same” is not a reasonable defence in my opinion, I do not see how he won the case. When attending faults I do not assume anything, if the installation had a “floating” neutral due to a substation fault then the neutral would be live, it does not happen often but can do a lot of damage when it does
Bear with me UNG, the original question was "do caravans require a test certificate and can the site owners request to see them". I'm trying to construct a trail of legislation that does require it, even if inadvertently. I'm not saying it must be complied with, merely exploring if it exists.
Part P is mandatory and does apply to dwellings and business premises that have a common supply (page 5 of Part P). I'm sure many site owners houses share the supply with the site in which case Part P applies to the site.
Part P also applies to parts of the above electrical installations in or on land associated with the buildings or parts of buildings including pond pumps in gardens and outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and green houses. (page 8 of Part P). As all the caravans are connected to this supply Part P would appear to apply to them.
Work that need not be notified does not include work in special locations or special installations. It merely lists those special locations and special installations and refers the reader to IEE Guidance Note 7 which gives guidance on achieving safe installations where risks to people are greater. (page 5 of Part P). So work in special locations and special installations must be notified.
Following this trail it seems that the site owner must comply with Part P and that all the caravans are part of that, so to ensure compliance he must ask to see the caravans certificate.
Horrible thought isn't it. The way out is to seperate the house supply from the site supply. Then explore whether a caravan is a dwelling!
Following that line then every change of occupier on a pitch would the require a periodic inspection to be carried out if you follow Table 3.2 in Guidance Note 3
I would think it highly unlikely that a standard domestic supply could support a dwelling and caravan site with pitches supplied with 10A - 15A at each pitch, even a small CL would probably have 2 separatly metered supplies one for the dwelling and another for the site
The whole stupidity of Part P is that qualified electricians can't even work on their own house (unless they are Part P assessed) without paying someone else to check it. ( still trying to understand legislation that allows me to refit a commercial kitchen but not my own at home)
As to weather a caravan needs a test see Table 3.2 as above. As BS7671 is similar to the highway code i.e. it is not law but compliance with it is the norm and will be used as the basis for proscution
As I said in an earlier post any caravan certificate would only apply to the mains supply it is connected to at the time of the test, so the only valid result on the cert would the operation of the RCD and earth bonding test if then connected to a different supply
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Topic: Electrical Certifcate
