Hi there i have my self in a bit of bother, i bought a brand new Lunar Ultima 546 at last years march caravan show at the NEC,great we thought a brand new caravan at last after 22 years of caravanning well it did not last long, when we went to pick up the caravan the brake lights didnt work when we got the van home bit of a rush as we were going away that afternoon, we we arrived on site still no brake lights and the problems kept coming we took the van back twice quite early on had the problems fixed they said went to pick it up again and lights didnt work again, so they sent me some out and i fitted them all good untill next time and the faults started again, we told the dealer but we were not bringing it back until the end of the season, by this time we had quite a list 21 faults in total, they took it back said all done so we picked it up again and then into storage through winter, first weekend out this year and we are off again with the faults some of which they were supposed to have done last time, went in again and we are away this weekend again, the problem is this has worn down my wife and i to the point that we hate the caravan and dont trust anymore, we were hoping to go abroad but dont trust the caravan anymore and we want something doing about it, problem is we do not know the law and how to go about it what rights we have and with whom, we have some finance but do not know if its personal or HP, we fear we are going to be left with a problematic caravan for another 5 years and nobody seems to care, any advice would be great, thanks Nigel
your best bet is phil on here.if it were mine i would reject it on the grounds of not fit for use.contact your finance company and tell them of your problems,as it belong to them until all payments are made.they have more leverage than you have.
------------- the only silly question is the one you do not ask.
I can only sympathise Nigel, I've had problems with my Stealth which were repaired satisfactarily but I agree its the lack of trust that's the big problem. If you go to the 'As anyone got a Stealth' Topic and read my 'Chronicles of Stealth' thread you will find several posts giving legal advise.
If you have legal insurance under any household insurance policy you should be able to fund a claim. Speak to a local solicitor who should be able to tell you whether ypu are entitled to reject the van now.
Thanks for your replies, mawkwind i will check out the thread and see of i can pick any legality that applies to me, fee fi fo thanks i will check my insurance but my local solicitor gives 1/2hr free chat i might try that also, thanks again guys
Be there and got the t shirt. First thing is to put it all in writing and send the letter by recorded post for a signature to the dealer giving them 14 days to rectify the faults under the Sale of goods Act otherwise you will be rejecting the caravan. Request that they only correspond with you in writing.
Do the same with the HP company advising that the goods that they have supplied are faulty as they are the current owners of the caravan.
If you get no response from the dealer send a "letter before action" advising that as they have not responded you are now giving them 10 working days in which to resolve the issues otherwise you are rejecting the caravan and will be claiming damages.
Please don't send the letters unless you intend to follow it through. Best is to use small claims court if the deposit plus what you have paid is less than £5000. Saves on costs.
I, Hope I can help, but I need some clarification first before any real guidance can be provided.
Your story stops after the van has been in and out of the dealer a few times and it is unclear whether everything is now OK. You finally say "went in again and we are away this weekend again, the problem is this has worn down my wife and i to the point that we hate the caravan and dont trust anymore,". Is it still faulty or have the faults been fixed? If they have been fixed then that appears to be the end of it. You may not be happy and fearful that the van may go wrong again, but whilst it is OK, and you elected to have it repaired, there is actually no problem nor any legal causes of action against anyone.
If the van is still defective then please confirm and specify what the current problems are.
If the van is still defective, then it is important that I know whether you have a bank loan or HP to "finance" the purchase of the van. There are different legal routes to travel, to rectify the problem, between HP and a Bank Loan. Take action under the wrong legal route and you will not get a result. No point in claiming damages from the Dealer if you have no legal redress against the dealer because you have HP. If you do have HP then the Sale of Goods Act dos not apply, so no point in claiming rights under the wrong legislation. So, exactly how did you finance the purchase?
Can you confirm that the brake light problem is not a problem with the electrics on your tow bar. Has your tow bar been checked? Did the dealer confirm that when they had the van in they found that the brake lights did not work. It's always possible that the problem is at your end and not with the van. I need to be clear on this before I can advise further.
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
Are the brake lights still faulty? there have been problems with new caravans with LED lights because they do not draw enough current to allow the car's electronics to 'see' a caravan is attached. This can be fixed with a modification to caravan that main dealer should be aware of.
Quote: Originally posted by cwdc56768 on 17/3/2012
I, Hope I can help, but I need some clarification first before any real guidance can be provided.
Your story stops after the van has been in and out of the dealer a few times and it is unclear whether everything is now OK. You finally say "went in again and we are away this weekend again, the problem is this has worn down my wife and i to the point that we hate the caravan and dont trust anymore,". Is it still faulty or have the faults been fixed? If they have been fixed then that appears to be the end of it. You may not be happy and fearful that the van may go wrong again, but whilst it is OK, and you elected to have it repaired, there is actually no problem nor any legal causes of action against anyone.
If the van is still defective then please confirm and specify what the current problems are.
If the van is still defective, then it is important that I know whether you have a bank loan or HP to "finance" the purchase of the van. There are different legal routes to travel, to rectify the problem, between HP and a Bank Loan. Take action under the wrong legal route and you will not get a result. No point in claiming damages from the Dealer if you have no legal redress against the dealer because you have HP. If you do have HP then the Sale of Goods Act dos not apply, so no point in claiming rights under the wrong legislation. So, exactly how did you finance the purchase?
Can you confirm that the brake light problem is not a problem with the electrics on your tow bar. Has your tow bar been checked? Did the dealer confirm that when they had the van in they found that the brake lights did not work. It's always possible that the problem is at your end and not with the van. I need to be clear on this before I can advise further.
Phil
Hi Phil, thanks for taking the time to reply, i will try and give you the information you need, right the caravan went in last november to have the vast list of faults done, the dealer said they were done and the caravan went into storage for the winter, we then took the van out for the first weekend on the 16th Feb and the list of faults started again, one of which was the rear door leaking which it was supposed to have been repaired in November, the caravan went back to the dealer for repair again and we have just had it back last week and have just got back today, and i am very upset as again the rear door was pouring water in where our little boy was sleeping, soaking the mattress and wall, it has been in twice now for the same thing with two failed repairs and now a sqeaky spongy floor, we have a majority finance package with Black Horse finance, the back light issue was where the bulbs fitted in the rear cluster had melted the bulb holder and would lean to one side thus making the brake light not to work, the dealer said they had replaced them when it was took back but it was clear they had not and when they sent a new pair out i fitted them and have had no problems with the back lights since, any help would be greatly welcome, thanks Nigel
I think your reply is rather confusing so you need to put the things in order as they occurred really rather than all mixed up. Phil is offerring legal help so you need to explain first and foremost exactly how you purchased the caravan to identify what legal rights you have then Phil can then point you in the right direction regarding as to what action to take and who to complain to regarding your problems. The dates are quite unimportant at this stage as this can be taken up in due course with your complaint with the relevant company.
The Black Horse web site does not mention a "majority finance package" but as this is a Black Horse deal I think that you will have an HP agreement. In that case the Sale of Goods Act, referred to above, does not regulate your arrangement for the caravan. You did not have a contract with the dealer for the "purchase" of the caravan so you do not have any complaint against the dealer , in law. Your contract was with the HP company. They purchased the van from the dealer and then leased it to you.
Just check your finance agreement and make sure that it is HP
Under HP you do not own the van until you have paid the final instalment. You finance agreement should say that
Whilst ever you keep your HP agreement in place you have to keep paying the instalments no matter how bad the van is.
You need to write to your HP company setting out the details of the problems in chronological order indicating what the dealer said he had done, but which was found to be incorrect. You need to indicate in your letter that the van has not been fit for its purpose since the date of purchase and that you intend to terminate your finance agreement and expect that all monies paid will be refunded. This gives Black Horse the chance to actually do something
I would suggest that, having made that point you indicate that you expect the HP company to either agree with your proposal or ensure that the defects are corrected within the next "x" number of days. Give a reasonable period of time bearing in mind how long it would reasonably take to remedy the faults.
Black Horse will then, I expect, talk to the dealer about getting everything put right and make appropriate arrangements.
Of course you may have had enough and just want rid of the van. In that case, after spelling out the problems, you have to tell Black Horse that you are terminating the HP agreement and will make no further payments. Cancel all standing orders. As I say whilst the HP agreement is in place you have to keep paying. Personally, I think that you have to give them the option of putting matters right hence my first suggestion.
You are entitled to do this under the legislation that regulates HP agreements. If they try to hold you to the HP agreement or refuse to repay all the money you have paid out then you can complain to the FSA Ombudsman. I will deal with that issue if needs be.
If you wish to terminate your HP don't forget to ask them to come and collect the van or ask where they would like you to return the van to.
I would suggest that, initially, you go along to a Local Black Horse office with your paper work and explain the situation and say that you want to terminate the HP. Ask them what they will do to put matters right. If you get no joy then you know just how the land lies and then move forward with terminating your HP agreement.
If Black Horse say that they will talk to the dealer about putting the van into good order, ask them for a timeframe. Don't let it drag out. Whilst ever it drags out you have to keep paying the HP repayments. Say something like, "I will give you this one opportunity to rectify the problems but without prejudice to my rights to terminate the HP agreement"
I am on holiday at the moment so do not dip in and out of this message board as much as I would if I am home, so any reply I give to any other questions you may have may be delayed until the end of a day
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
Hi
All this sounds too familiar! We've had our unicorn barcelona only 15 months and the faults have been endless and still ongoing. We should have gone down this route, weve ended up trading it in whilst its still got value and getting rid as it got to the stage where I wanted to give it up! I fully sympathise with you and hope you get sorted but it's very stressful when you are going through it. We are waiting for our new van and decided if we have hassle with it then were giving up.
Good luck
Thanks Phil, i think we will be going down the route of cancelling because my wife can not take it any more and if it does not get sorted soon i feel she will have a break down,what i meant by majority finance is we put a £1000 deposit and a part ex how do we stand in getting that money back as the finance was only £11000 of the total cost of £16000,
Hi Cheryl Mark, we know how you feel the stress we are going through at the minute is getting close to boiling point and we have holidays booked, and if we have to tell the kids sorry no holidays then that would break us i think, we have told the dealer today and contacted the finance company, we wait to see what happens, thanks Nigel
Aww I really feel for you, I hope you get sorted out. I fully know where your wife is coming from as I was the same, its made me feel stressed and ill and im not that sort of person, the hassle of contacting the dealers was awful and to make matters worse our dealership (Discover Leisure) went into receivership whilst our van was there to have warranty work done! its just been a nitemare from start to finish. Weve had three new Baileys and everyone has had water ingress/damp within 6 months of buying, the Unicorn front window leaked the first weekend we used it so you can imagine our dissapointment. Im starting to feel quite strong about these caravan companies and how they build their products, the magazines show glossy pics etc to sell them and they get paid for advertising, yet, when I emailed the editor and gave them a list of over 40 faults on the van since purchasing they didnt print that letter, nor even reply to my email. Iv even considered contacting trading standards to notify them of faulty goods, but, I lost the will to do anything and just traded it in. Luckily we got the van at a good price so we havent lost that much on it, but, weve ended up paying out alot more and have to finance more. Its supposed to be a nice experince owning and having a caravan but when it ends up like our scenarios its difficult for anyone to understand what you are going through and you even start to doubt yourself and think "is it me?" Anyway, good luck with it all and dont give up, I hope it all gets sorted out for you in time for your hols :(
" is we put a £1000 deposit and a part ex how do we stand in getting that money back as the finance was only £11000 of the total cost of £16000,"
This is how it should have worked if you have an HP agreement.......you sold your van to Black Horse and gave them the £1000. They then did a deal with the dealer to get the van so that the HP company could then lease it to you. Part of the HP company deal may have been the giving of your van to the dealer plus the £1000. Thus your deal was with Black Horse and where they are in breach they have to put you back into the position you were in before the deal. i.e give you the £1000 plus the p/e value of your van plus all payments made under the HP agreement.
The great difficulty I have in advising of any other route (if you do need to pursue a different action to get your money back) is that you have said that you think this HP, Black Horse usually deal with these matters as HP, but the nature of the financial deal may just be something quite different, especially as you now say that there is a part exchange in the deal. e.g. it may be a personal loan not HP.
You need to have a good read of your finance agreement to make sure that it is an HP agreement. Further, check your paperwork for the part ex of your van to see just who took it from you. The Dealer may have ended up with the van but that could be because Black Horse traded it in as part of the deal for you to buy.
It is so important in such cases to be absolutely clear just what kind of transaction you are getting into. Unless you know that you cannot take this problem forward to a resolution. Ask the wrong question of the dealer or the HP company and you get the wrong answer. Pursue the wrong cause of action then, in law, you will lose and be stuck with the van. Dealers and HP companies know how to string the innocent along!!!!!
e.g If you do have HP and you go back to the dealer and say "under the sale of goods act you have to give me my money back" he can reply with "No I don't". That is the end of your discussion. As I have said under an HP deal you don't have a contract with the dealer and the SOGA does not apply. You will be quoting the wrong law so you will get from the dealer the right answer to your incorrect question and get nowhere.
e.g. If its not HP and you complain to the Finance company that they have given you a duff caravan they can properly respond with "No we haven't". They will be giving you the right response to your incorrect assertion and you get nowhere.
So, you really need to check your paperwork and understand just how the whole deal was packaged together. If you can do that, and clarify just what the whole deal was, we can take this further.
Just a point of principle, you can't terminate an HP agreement on the grounds that your wife is fed up with the deal. (I can understand where you are coming from though). You can only terminate HP on the grounds set out in the relevant consumer regulations where you can show that the HP company is legally at fault. i.e the van is not fit for purpose. The wife being fed up is a consequence of the van being defective not the reason it is defective, if you see what I mean. So, as I said earlier, argue the right cause of action. Don't ever say to Black Horse that you want to end the agreement and get your money back because you are fed up of the hassle. They may try to use that against you. They can respond that "There is nothing in the regs about that" or "You cannot terminate your agreement on those grounds." You see, again, you will be getting the right response to your wrong assertion. In a dispute such as this it is vital to your case that you keep to the law. It is so much harder for them to argue that the van is fit if you stick to the law.
Phil
------------- If you're not on a fell your wasting your feet and for 2014 it's.......Feb Castleton Mar North Yors Moors; Apr Sutton on Sea; May Thirsk; Jun Clapham/Riverside (Lakes); July Wharfedale; August Crakehall; Sept Knaresborough; Oct Wirral Park/Clitheroe
Hi Phil, thanks again i have checked the paperwork and it is a hire purchase agreement and the financial information states cash price for goods £15000 less deposit £4000 amount of credit £11000, so you were right that the hp is for the total amount and the px and deposit has been put as a total deposit, the reason that we now want to terminate is because of the second attempted repair of the back door which leaks now worst than it did the 2 times it has been in for before and there has arrisen a possible spongy floor starting and interior trim worn away, i was just saying that my wife no longer wants to give them the option to carry out yet more repairs, i hope this helps you,
ps i hope your enjoying your holidays and thankyou for taking the time to reply, Nigel
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Topic: Legal help needed
