Quote: Originally posted by mikegalagher on 10/9/2013
Quote: Originally posted by tentage on 10/9/2013
Quote: Originally posted by mikegalagher on 09/9/2013
2. By parking there, if the signage is done right, you're entering into a contract.
Oh really...so which court has that been tested in?
I've no idea whether it's been tested or not.
I do know that gov.uk say:
"7. How is a parking contract formed?
7.1 Contracts for parking on private land can arise in a number of ways. However normally a car park will have signs setting out the terms and conditions upon which parking is offered. Drivers can then decide whether or not to accept those terms and conditions. In most cases a driver who parks in a car park with clear signage setting out the terms and conditions will be deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions and therefore entered into a contract to park with the landholder."
OK?
Try this scenario - I'm driving a vehicle on the motorway and start to feel tired. I pull on to the services and sleep in my vehicle without getting out to use the facilities. I'm parked up for longer than the permitted 2 Hours. I have seen the signage because I didn't leave the vehicle and the signage is attached to the buidings from which I have parked some distance so cannot see them. Is the signage clear enough to satisfy the legal requirement?
Quote: Originally posted by mikegalagher on 10/9/2013
Quote: Originally posted by tentage on 10/9/2013
Quote: Originally posted by mikegalagher on 09/9/2013 2. By parking there, if the signage is done right, you're entering into a contract.
Oh really...so which court has that been tested in?
I've no idea whether it's been tested or not.
I do know that gov.uk say:
"7. How is a parking contract formed?
7.1 Contracts for parking on private land can arise in a number of ways. However normally a car park will have signs setting out the terms and conditions upon which parking is offered. Drivers can then decide whether or not to accept those terms and conditions. In most cases a
driver who parks in a car park with clear signage setting out the terms and conditions will be deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions and therefore entered into a contract to park with the landholder."
OK?
Try this scenario - I'm driving a vehicle on the motorway and start to feel tired. I pull on to the services and sleep in my vehicle without getting out to use the facilities. I'm parked up for longer than the permitted 2 Hours. I have seen the signage because I didn't leave the vehicle and the signage is attached to the buidings from which I have parked some distance so cannot see them. Is the signage clear enough to satisfy the legal requirement?
As it is private land, can you please define "legal requirement"?
Try this scenario - I'm driving a vehicle on the motorway and start to feel tired. I pull on to the services and sleep in my vehicle without getting out to use the facilities. I'm parked up for longer than the permitted 2 Hours. I have seen the signage because I didn't leave the vehicle and the signage is attached to the buidings from which I have parked some distance so cannot see them. Is the signage clear enough to satisfy the legal requirement?
This exact case was raised on watchdog last year and the PPC were able to prove with CCTV there was adequate signage on entry to the carpark without the need to exit a vehicle.
All it required was a sign on the side of the slip road and/or one on entrance tot he parking area.
Try this scenario - I'm driving a vehicle on the motorway and start to feel tired. I pull on to the services and sleep in my vehicle without getting out to use the facilities. I'm parked up for longer than the permitted 2 Hours. I have seen the signage because I didn't leave the vehicle and the signage is attached to the buidings from which I have parked some distance so cannot see them. Is the signage clear enough to satisfy the legal requirement?
This exact case was raised on watchdog last year and the PPC were able to prove with CCTV there was adequate signage on entry to the carpark without the need to exit a vehicle.
All it required was a sign on the side of the slip road and/or one on entrance tot he parking area.
How many people would stop on the slip road to read the signage? Just because you read the signage I doubt very much if a contract has been entered into. The only offence you commit by parking on private land is trespass and the LL has to demonstrate the damages they suffered to claim compensation.
How many people would stop on the slip road to read the signage? Just because you read the signage I doubt very much if a contract has been entered into. The only offence you commit by parking on private land is trespass and the LL has to demonstrate the damages they suffered to claim compensation.
Surely that defence relies on the ignorance of the defendant? Has that ever held up before? If it went to court would it just be a case of saying "I couldn't be bothered to read the signs"?
How many people would stop on the slip road to read the signage? Just because you read the signage I doubt very much if a contract has been entered into. The only offence you commit by parking on private land is trespass and the LL has to demonstrate the damages they suffered to claim compensation.
Surely that defence relies on the ignorance of the defendant? Has that ever held up before? If it went to court would it just be a case of saying "I couldn't be bothered to read the signs"?
There is no legal obligation to read the signs and the signs have no legality. Overstaying without permission is trespass which is why damages are limited. Parking charges are the amount you shoudl have paid for overstaying the 2 hours i.e. £2 and not £70.
If I'm coming into a service area on the slip road, I don't think I have time to read all the signage without slowing to some ridiculously slow speed and then probably causing some moving traffic incident. I am more concerned in making sure I am heading for the correct parking area and still maintaining a reasonable speed. If the signage is more prominent and more of it perhaps it would be more noticeable.
I'm sure in a court of law if I caused an accident by slowing down or ran into some-one who had slowed to read the sign but I hadn't done so, my defence of I was reading the parking criteria on the signage wouldn't be accepted as mitigating circumstances - more driving without due care 7 attention.
Perhaps if the service sation took down all the McD's, Burger King, Costa Coffe etc signs on the way in we might be able to spot the parking signage.
What if you could prove that were ill and couldn't drive as the 2 hours was about to expire, would that be a release from the invoice?
Also at busy times, you've had a nap for an hour and then decided to go for a meal, queues are long, you sit down for your meal and the 2 hours have elapsed- what happens then? - The signs on the motorway tells you to take a break if you're tired so do we pass the invoice on the highways agency????
It's just the service station operators trying to make a fast buck on top of the high prices they charge for food & drink
What about all the EU citizens that live and work here.
I can't imagine many of them would even know what the sign means let alone what it says.
Whilst ignorance of the law is no defence, this isn't law, it's conjecture and hope in the part of the operators of these money grabbing system.
And one final thing. The OP has NOT been fined. That can only occur in a Court.
He has been given an invitation to pay a sum of money that some other thinks is 'reasonable'. I for one don't think it's reasonable, especially on a Motorway Service Station.
------------- How come when some people visit the fountain of knowledge, they only gargle!!!
Wow! - do people *still* pay these silly invoices?
I (like many otyhers, I suspect) have a scanned pile of speculative invoices and meaningless threat-o-grams from CP Plus.
The advice, ALWAYS, is to ignore. Never enter into any sort of dialogue with them.
It can be initially disconcerting to receive additional blood-curdling threats from the various pseudo 'law firms' who are part & parcel of this racket - but once you realise that it is ALL bluff and bluster, silly verbiage from people who are too idle to work for a living, and who want you to keep 'em! - then you end up laughing at their ineffectual posturing.
Remember, always, legally these spongers can only sue for their actual 'loss' (which, of course, is negligible or non-existent) which is why they will never take these disputes to court.
They rely on people being frightened by their pseudo-legal babble, and their impressively headed notepaper.
Ignore them, and they WILL crawl away.
------------- Getting Old, Staying Active (much to Mrs Folder's dismay..)
Quote:
There is no legal obligation to read the signs and the signs have no legality. Overstaying without permission is trespass which is why damages are limited. Parking charges are the amount you shoudl have paid for overstaying the 2 hours i.e. £2 and not £70.
This is interesting. I've not seen any mention of this on the pepipoo site. Would this also be valid for parking enforcement on public streets? Say where no parking is permitted between certain times?
Quote:
There is no legal obligation to read the signs and the signs have no legality. Overstaying without permission is trespass which is why damages are limited. Parking charges are the amount you shoudl have paid for overstaying the 2 hours i.e. £2 and not £70.
This is interesting. I've not seen any mention of this on the pepipoo site. Would this also be valid for parking enforcement on public streets? Say where no parking is permitted between certain times?
It's difficult to see how any contract (as opposed to legislation) could be deemed enforceable when the basis of it relies solely upon a presumption that the other party had read and agreed the terms.
Suppose you cannot read, suppose you cannot understand English, or are dyslexic? 'presumed' consent is very shaky ground for any contract.
The last time I bothered to look into this farce, only the landowner could bring an action for damages incurred by trespass, and any damages sought had to be only for the loss incurred, and not be of a punitive nature.
Trying to add £68 to a £2 charge is extremely punitive, and such an action could not succeed.
------------- Getting Old, Staying Active (much to Mrs Folder's dismay..)
Can you obtain a driving licence in the UK without the ability to read?
If you can't understand English and you are a not a UK resident then it's doubtful you'll be driving a UK registered vehicle and thus not enforceable anyhow.
Seems a pretty safe assumption that drivers using the parking area have the ability to read.
"This is interesting. I've not seen any mention of this on the pepipoo site. Would this also be valid for parking enforcement on public streets? Say where no parking is permitted between certain times?"
In a word No. The Local Authority have 'Authority to issue Traffic Orders. That Authority comes from Road Traffic Regulations and they in turn are authorised by Parliament.
In other words, those traffic orders are legally enforceable.
Whereas the previous correspondent Oldfolder hit the nail on the head when he stated that these signs in Private Car Parks try to pass onto you, the driver that you have given them the consent to send you a bill by putting up a sign that you may (or may not) have read.
------------- How come when some people visit the fountain of knowledge, they only gargle!!!
Seems you can take a driving test with a translator for both the theory and practical no matter how bonkers that seems.
Wow what an eye opener! Very worrying! What is more of a concern is that some of them have an accident where they are at fault and someone dies and they get off lightly, but that is another debate!
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Topic: fined for service station stop
