Anything attached to the caravan that can be deemed an 'accessory' is part of the payload. Consider removing the spare wheel and carrier, with the wheel travelling in the car boot. This will save you around 26kg of payload. Not sure how much a bike weighs.
Perhaps the biggest consideration of bike(s) on the A-frame is the nose weight! A great many of us struggle to get our nose weight down to the MAX figure WITHOUT additional weight on the A-frame!
My Lunar 524 van in it's bare bones state (MIRO configuration plus MM and HD battery and NO payload) exceeds even the Alko caravan chassis limit by about 15Kg, and IIRC it's about 45Kg over car limit in that state! - I have to load the van VERY carefully to get my nose weight down to acceptable weight! Snowflake in Hell's chance of ever adding even a single kiddies bike to A-frame and ever achieving a safe nose weight!
Three nose weight figures to be considered, with the lightest one being your limiting figure NOT TO BE EXCEEDED.
1) The caravan chassis MAX nose weight (usually found in the caravan handbook)
2) Tow car MAX nose weight (usually found in the car handbook)
3) Tow Bar MAX nose weight. NOT necessarily the same as the car figure, can be higher or lower! (likely found on a sticker on the bar, or if you have any, documents supplied with it)
Don't take manufacturer's published 'Payload' figure too literally, they are a loose figure in the first place, and if you've had motor movers, HD battery, Solar panel, etc. etc. fitted, they have ALL come off your payload! The critical figure is do not exceed the MTPLM with your payload and fitted accessories! Almost certain you need to weigh the van (local weighbridge or Reich type DIY caravan scales) to be certain. My Lunar stated payload is 171Kg, reality with fixed accessories (MM, HD Battery etc.) is that is down to 135kg, which is not a lot once you start stuffing the van with essentials!
Quote: Originally posted by Monty15 on 04/1/2024
Three nose weight figures to be considered, with the lightest one being your limiting figure NOT TO BE EXCEEDED.
1) The caravan chassis MAX nose weight (usually found in the caravan handbook)
2) Tow car MAX nose weight (usually found in the car handbook)
3) Tow Bar MAX nose weight. NOT necessarily the same as the car figure, can be higher or lower! (likely found on a sticker on the bar, or if you have any, documents supplied with it)
Don't take manufacturer's published 'Payload' figure too literally, they are a loose figure in the first place, and if you've had motor movers, HD battery, Solar panel, etc. etc. fitted, they have ALL come off your payload! The critical figure is do not exceed the MTPLM with your payload and fitted accessories! Almost certain you need to weigh the van (local weighbridge or Reich type DIY caravan scales) to be certain. My Lunar stated payload is 171Kg, reality with fixed accessories (MM, HD Battery etc.) is that is down to 135kg, which is not a lot once you start stuffing the van with essentials!
All the more reason to have a tow vehicle that will take 75% of the gear instead of filling the van itself!
I think all Bailey noseweights, for example, are 100kg
Quote: Originally posted by sjr66 on 04/1/2024
Thanks for your responses and making me aware of the 3 nose weight figures. What are the possible consequences of exceeding nose weights?
I suppose you could see 4 potential outcomes:
1) Mechanical failure of some component in the caravan chassis/tow bar/tow car group. Probably highly unlikely unless grossly overloaded or over-stressed for a long time, as good safety margins built in.
2) Technically your insurance could be deemed invalid, as a condition is always that the vehicle (including trailer) has to be legal and roadworthy, overloading probably breaches both of those! Your insurer may never actually be aware, but see 3.
3) On a roadside spot check (and DVSA/Police have had a stop and check campaign running for past few years targeting trailers, although the numbers are pretty low, they tend to target specific roads in a blitz campaign, then move to somewhere else), where mechanical condition, being within legal specifications AND having correct documentation are verified. If you can't correct on the spot, your journey likely ends there! If you have incorrect documentation (and your insurance may be deemed invalid if the car-trailer is out of specification!) you don't go any further and risk a fine/endorsed licence.
4) You are involved in an accident, and the roadworthyness of you outfit is scrutinised. Overloading of vehicle/trailers is always considered.
Maybe 5) If the tail of you car is forced too low by excess weight, then the towbar/electrics/cables/jockey wheel can contact the road and suffer damage - worn through trailer cables (and consequential trailer light failures!), and wrecked jockey wheels are far from unknown.
TBH, so long as the overload is minor, I doubt that any of the above amount to much more than a theoretical risk, but a risk all the same, and people do get caught out, so you can never say never!
Overloading/bad loading of trailers was one of the highest faults found on the last set of DVLA roadside check figures I looked at, so expect it to be looked into if ever stopped! If your car is too heavily loaded on the tow hitch and has a unusually low tail stance you may well draw attention of the Police on any road to investigate why! - If things are that bad, the front of the car will be light and steering/handling likely detrimentally affected.
Lot of if's and maybe's in there, and a lot of the outcome depends on by how much, and how well your tow car copes with it - real how long is a piece of string speculation.
Quote: Originally posted by Monty15 on 04/1/2024
Three nose weight figures to be considered, with the lightest one being your limiting figure NOT TO BE EXCEEDED.
1) The caravan chassis MAX nose weight (usually found in the caravan handbook)
2) Tow car MAX nose weight (usually found in the car handbook)
3) Tow Bar MAX nose weight. NOT necessarily the same as the car figure, can be higher or lower! (likely found on a sticker on the bar, or if you have any, documents supplied with it)
Don't take manufacturer's published 'Payload' figure too literally, they are a loose figure in the first place, and if you've had motor movers, HD battery, Solar panel, etc. etc. fitted, they have ALL come off your payload! The critical figure is do not exceed the MTPLM with your payload and fitted accessories! Almost certain you need to weigh the van (local weighbridge or Reich type DIY caravan scales) to be certain. My Lunar stated payload is 171Kg, reality with fixed accessories (MM, HD Battery etc.) is that is down to 135kg, which is not a lot once you start stuffing the van with essentials!
All the more reason to have a tow vehicle that will take 75% of the gear instead of filling the van itself!
I think all Bailey noseweights, for example, are 100kg
Thankfully I have a huge luggage space in my car, so I tend to load the car rather than the caravan wherever possible, much rather have a heavy car and lighter van for better towing performance, always worked for me even with a theoretical 97% car-caravan match on the numbers, reality is it's more like 90% as van never loaded to MTPLM. All my numbers are close to MAX's, so very careful attention paid to loads and loading and actual measurements taken to ensure compliance. Always had absolutely rock steady stability in near 6 years and thousands of miles with this car-van combo.
anything mounted on the front of the A frame is mostly going to add nose weight.. nose weight is mostly limited by the cars rear suspensions ability to carry extra weight.. loading extra stuff in the boot or rear seat may appear to help but in reality it isnt doing what it seems..
Quote: Originally posted by trog100 on 04/1/2024
anything mounted on the front of the A frame is mostly going to add nose weight.. nose weight is mostly limited by the cars rear suspensions ability to carry extra weight.. loading extra stuff in the boot or rear seat may appear to help but in reality it isnt doing what it seems..
trog
Swings and roundabouts to some extent, I've got a seven seater, with only 1 or 2 people and a medium sized dog on board, car weight capacity isn't the issue for me, it's the very light 70Kg MAX towbar capacity that gives me problems! Plenty of scope for piling luggage in car without overloading rear axle, I can cram in around half a tonne of passengers and luggage!
The A-Frame on most UK vans is not designed to take bike rack as they are too short. Continental vans tend to have longer A-Frames, I think Fiamma might make a suitable rack? Could you not accommodate the bikes on the towing vehicle?
I've recently seen a gadget on FB that fits to the towbar, allows you to tow, but will also carry bikes. This does not impede the van when turning. I'll try find it. It all depends on your towballs MW. Probably no good for such as Monty on 70kg, but i did look at it for myself ( at 150kg), but decided against for practical reasons.
I think this is it.
There was pics of it actually loaded on a guys car with van attached at 45 degrees so you could see the clearance. But cant find his post. Would imagine its down to towbar types, to fit it.
We used to have an Adria with an A frame mounted bike rack for two bikes which worked well, along with the other four bikes on the roof of the car, but we did tow with an i800 with loads of payload. The biggest problem as has already been stated is that UK made vans tend to have a short A frame whereas continental made vans tend to have a longer A Frame allowing the car/caravan combination to turn without crushing the bikes between the two. Hope you find a solution.
Quote: Originally posted by colinlob on 09/1/2024
We used to have an Adria with an A frame mounted bike rack for two bikes which worked well, along with the other four bikes on the roof of the car, but we did tow with an i800 with loads of payload. The biggest problem as has already been stated is that UK made vans tend to have a short A frame whereas continental made vans tend to have a longer A Frame allowing the car/caravan combination to turn without crushing the bikes between the two. Hope you find a solution.
The OP and I will have near identical A-frames, I hadn't even thought as far as the crush-in-turn problem, but think that is a high risk, A-frame is very short, the jockey wheel winder and gas locker door foul each other on opening, I have to ensure handle is swung forward to just clear door! Reckon a couple of adult bikes would be a snug fit in gap even if pedals 'nested' into adjacent frame, probably need to swing handlebars 90 degrees to get them in space as well. Nested/compacted as much as possible, and as close to van front locker as possible, think risk they would be contacted in a tight turn with some tow cars!
A day of all things motorhome and campervan. The show is held both in the main indoor arena and across the grounds. Catering, hot drinks and food options are available. Easy access to the site and free parking included. Win one of five pairs of day tickets
Topic: Bikes
via mobile 04/1/2024 at 4:32pm
